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General Leang

24, torture and Iraq

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As many of you would probably be aware, the Fox TV program 24 has been criticized for being an influence for soldiers who claim they draw inspiration from the protagonist Jack Bauer and have tried to copycat his interrogation and torture techniques. If not below are several web sites on this particular issue.

 

http://righthandpolitics.blogspot.com/2008...-bauer-way.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=55722

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2007/mar/12/00008/

http://www.pierretristam.com/Bobst/07/c022707.htm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/am...lse-436143.html

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/2/22/is_t...e_on_hit_fox_tv

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/12/...can-Torture.php

 

Speaking of which, I find it curious that 24 is pointed at for criticism over what happens in Iraq, as season two made a very good case against invading Iraq. The plot involved Middle Eastern terrorists attempting to detonate a nuclear bomb in Los Angeles, and the President trying to decide whether or not to invade the countries who were alledged to be in support of the attack. If you remember this was one of the things they attempted to pin on Iraq, linking the country to September 11. On the issue of torture I am of the understanding that it does not work, and on the issue of Iraq whatever the right decision was the show did a good job of putting a case forward to not invade, certainly on the same premise the writers used. I think it is safe to say many of us have good knowledge on this topic, many of us have strong opinions about Iraq and torture. I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts.

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To be honest who cares. The Geneva convention in my eyes is a joke. How can it be humane to kill someone in war, but hurt them and letting them live to extract information? Oh no that's not right, gotta draw the line somewhere.

 

Terrorists are Terrorists. They aim to blow you up, strike fear into your heart, cause chaos and misery. But soldiers aren't allowed to give these bastards a good Jack Bauer style slap around the face. I wish they'd torture every one of these ignorant careless scum to within an inch of their life! They deserve what's coming to them!

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but at what point do you know when they are terrorists? if they are confirmed terrorists and you have definite proof that THEY have done something (we're talking abu "captain hook" hamza level stuff and worse. inciting hatred and recruiting and stuff... but really it should probably be limited to people actually plotting to do things or actually having done terrorist acts) then i see no problem with torture to gain information. but unless you know that they are a terrorist 100% there are moral issues involved. i mean we don't wanna go round tearing out fingernails of some poor teenager just because one of his friends linked him to a terrorist recruiting site on the internet... and only use torture where it is applicable... like when they -actually- have information you need... for instance, you know there is a cell plotting to blow up something and this established terrorist is refusing to tell you. sure, it may not be fair or democratic or peaceful... but let's face it, they want to kill us. why should we be nice to them when they'd just as soon blow up our children on the bus o.o i'd rather one guy have slight mental trauma and a few physical injuries then 20 - 2000 people dead or crippled o.o it's the lesser of two evils and until our governments see that we're not gonna get anywhere with terrorism...

but y'know, that's just my opinion... i can understand the peaceful route but it doesn't work... the terrorists aren't threatened. if they blow up a bus, train or building the worst they face is a few years in a high level prison with other terrorists :\

i can understand backing out of extreme torture but something like a beating isn't so bad. nothing that'll leave permanent damage o.o; and if there was anything seriously damaged they should be taken to the hospital... but once again at what point do you draw the line? they have to say no torture otherwise there will be no real limit to the level of torture and whom it is implimented on :\ someone will always find a way around it...

(sorry about the wall of text xD)

 

ps: there have been serious rumours about the new star trek movie containing torture too cos all of abrhams movies and tv series seem to contain some form of torture. and starfleet is meant to be a peaceful safe enviroment against that kind of thing. it's become a large issue amongst trekkies >.>;

Edited by Mina Synd

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I discussed this elsewhere and one of the things that came up was how those against torture, if something like a terrorist incident were to occur, they would be thinking if only they had done more, if only they could have gotten the information they needed. To live with that would be harsh. On the other hand there is a thought that if we resort to terrorist tactics then the terrorists win, or they might as well win. I am not saying either of these views are correct but these are views worthwhile investigating.

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So on the same level of seriousness as the whole idea of both sides of this issue...

 

What does Walker Texas Ranger have to say about this?

I would ask Steven Sigel, but in all...

 

I rather talk to that lady that jumps out of the cake in "Under Siege"...

 

oh yeaah giggty...

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To be honest who cares. The Geneva convention in my eyes is a joke. How can it be humane to kill someone in war, but hurt them and letting them live to extract information? Oh no that's not right, gotta draw the line somewhere.

 

Terrorists are Terrorists. They aim to blow you up, strike fear into your heart, cause chaos and misery. But soldiers aren't allowed to give these bastards a good Jack Bauer style slap around the face. I wish they'd torture every one of these ignorant careless scum to within an inch of their life! They deserve what's coming to them!

Uh huh, that works when you KNOW they're terrorist. But we round many people on the 'suspicion' of them being terrorists. Slapping them around then releasing them saying "whoops, our bad" doesn't really win over hearts and minds, y'know.

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Uh huh, that works when you KNOW they're terrorist. But we round many people on the 'suspicion' of them being terrorists. Slapping them around then releasing them saying "whoops, our bad" doesn't really win over hearts and minds, y'know.

 

I think they should slap some babies and kick some puppies on the way out...

 

Arguing logic is anything but useful when your audience's attention is on "McCain's VP is hawt dood!".

Any case, I embace the pain... if we screw up worse, then maybe... MAYBE someone will learn something....

 

I mean it took 8 years for people to realise their voting preferance wasn't all that great.

 

Maybe after amageddon, I can spout "I told you so"...

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Maybe. The problem was, Bush was voted in. It may have been a terrible mistake to elect him over Al Gore and vote him back in for a second term. I cannot say, it is not my place to judge. I can say that was who America wanted as President, if there was someone they thought was better for the job then they would have voted for them instead.

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Bush has never been the President of the united states, he's always been known as the illegal president. All black and unemployed votes in Florida were never counted and that's where the voting problems always are. Bush's brother (Governor of Florida) made sure of that. America wanted Al Gore and they never got him. That's the bent truth about the Bush family, they're a bunch of dangerous warmongering, economy corrupting political figures. They always have been and they always will be. Most of the problems with America throughout history have been because 3 Generations of Bush have interfered with the freedoms of everyone in the United States.

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I cannot say for certain whether or not President Bush somehow used unorthodox methods to win the election, what I can say is in two months he will no longer lead America, and if those who felt he did a poor job make their voices heard then maybe we will see history made with the first African American President, and maybe those who believe the allegations against Bush might feel some justice in Obama and his political party undo some of the damage they feel was caused in the past eight years.

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lawl... voted in... but let's face it, having an african american in the presidency is a pipe dream. it's probably never gonna happen... and if he does get in by some miracle, he'll probably be assassinated... there are too many solid christians out there and nearly as many nazi/skinhead types out there o.o there are millions of them in america alone and do you really think they'd sit by and let an inferior race take power? :\ america is still too backwards to accept a president other then a white male... i'm sorry but it's true. the american people just wouldn't be able to tolerate anyone else... so you can bet your ass the government will rig the votes again and get McCain in power o.o i don't like to chew on america without good reason, but the people just aren't that accepting of change. they are scared that if you get a new president other then a white male they will screw up everything oo; and the minorities of intelligent people who think it would be a good idea to have a black president are heavily out-numbered :\

i can tell you right now that if obama takes the presidency there will probably be some kind of civil war along the line, especially if he tries to change things... with over 4 million skinheads in america... that's a lot of hastle :\ and in a country that allows guns? ya... ._.; let's just hope obama wins over the hearts and minds and manages to lead the country into a new era without bloodshed.

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The consequences were any of this found out would be too terrible to imagine. You look at the intelligence people attribute to Bush, even if he or a member of his cabinet were smart enough to think of the idea it is my hope that they would see such manipilation as political suicide.

 

As for Obama, the polls suggest he has a slight lead and it seems that America is sick of the Republican party. All of that however means little on November 3rd. I think it would make a rather profound statement if he were to be voted in, to the point where America will either prosper under a historical election or fall because of the issue of racism. The country should have the intelligence to accept the will of the people, sadly there are those who wish to persecute one thing or another and simply because Obama is a presidential canidate people are going to attack him.

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too many backward idiots out there :\ if only people with a certain level of IQ were allowed to vote it would probably solve all the problems xD but y'know... sooner or later obama is gonna be attacked or killed. there are just too many racists out there ._.; maybe not in the big cities but if he leaves to go out into like, the deep south or any small towns or anything... yah that'll be bad D: let's just hope he becomes president and really changes things for the better... then even the racists will have to see what a great job he's doing o.o

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Maybe. The problem was, Bush was voted in. It may have been a terrible mistake to elect him over Al Gore and vote him back in for a second term. I cannot say, it is not my place to judge. I can say that was who America wanted as President, if there was someone they thought was better for the job then they would have voted for them instead.

 

Most People don't know better...

 

and I love people...

 

Darwinism at it's best...

 

"...Me oh my! What tragedy has taken shape!

It's there, in a stare, you helped destroy what you'd create!..." -Mat D. Heart

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Would having someone who supposedly knows better holding absolute power, with no public voice allowed on their decision making, be preferable?

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mmm dictatorship... or a monarchy o.O really there is -no- single effective form of government. there will always be someone/group of someones at the top controlling things o.o an if you leave it to the people you run the risk of the populous taking control. and in general, the majority don't have that much intelligence >_>; there is no way to get an effective working system... everyone wants things for themselves and they are prepared to do some damn dirty things to see it happen :\ all we can do is pick the lesser of two evils and hope most of what they do is good. of course it is technically possible to get someone good in a leadership position... for example, in the british monarchy... had princess diana not been assassinated she could have done far more amazing things then she managed to do... i guess it's possible to get an honest decent politician but really they are kind of contradicting terms xD

 

we just have to make the best out of what we got ^^ but in all honestly i don't think things can get more screwed up then bush has done... since he's managed to get a record debt level... but i shouldn't bash him too much. i just can't think of anything positive he's really done for the US >_>;

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Bush has never been the President of the united states, he's always been known as the illegal president. All black and unemployed votes in Florida were never counted and that's where the voting problems always are.
Okay, Bush is definitely not known as the illegal president. Second, Florida isn't a racist state that says "NO BLACK PPLS ALLOWED!!11!". Thirdly, the courts decided who got the votes, not Jeb Bush.

 

I don't like him either, but he did get elected ;)

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Jesus elected him...

 

He said so...

Palin said so...

Ann "Kill 9-11 widows" Coultor said so...

 

I do believe someone with terrible supernatural powers put him into office as well...

but I won't say who...

 

 

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it's yuri's latest plan to bring down the west o.O an if you believe that it was a straight honest vote you have issues... i was watching CNN live when he got revoted in. the numbers suddenly changed for no reason. one second the votes for florida were for the other guy then suddenly they go "whooooopsie we have an error here..." then the numbers change completely and bush wins by a landslide in florida >_> that was beyond suspicious to me... i don't know who did what but that was a major conspiracy screwup there >_> and the funny thing is, no-one seemed to notice it except a small group of people. i'm kinda surprised someone didn't record it an stick it on youtube >_>;

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What do you think the reaction would be if the election being rigged was found out? Can you imagine the political ramifications both in America and overseas?

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that would be insane, but something that big couldn't be kept a secret for too long, anything will be leaked sooner or later, and it's just a matter of time until information trickles down to people who aren't getting paid enough and leak it, especially with something that big

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well the average time for large conspiracies to come undone in the US is usually 10 years after that group has left office minimum xD so now we're hearing all kindsa stuff about vietnam and the first gulf war... but you can bet we won't hear any major dirt on bush jr until him and all his cronies are definately out of office o.o

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I thought those stories about things such as medical experiments conducted on soldiers and depleted uranium being used in shells in Iraq, and Agent Orange and the barbaric tactics and warfare from both sides in Vietnam, were common knowledge, or are there new stories about these wars?

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aaaah not just stuff like that... there are all kinds of conspiracies popping up... when it's deemed non-threatening to the government it's avaiable for public use. then some conspiracy nut comes along and puts the freedom of information act into order o.o i mean obviously the large conspiracies like that we know happened cos they were such big projects and were such a public scene... but chances are the government wouldn't release -all- the little secrets or admit they did anything until the freedom of information act is inforced in the future and it's been deemed fine with national security o.o

 

usually the first place we hear about it is when a new documentory comes out... some conspiracy nut has dragged up detailed facts on a story we knew vaguely about o-o;

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