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jeffnz

Programming from scratch vs. mods

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It'll take me forever to come up with anything decent but I'm really pleased with how c++ is going. I made an awfully coded concept program which I plan to extend. The worst aspect of my program is that on some lines I've gone:

 

x = 50; y = 200

 

Instead of putting them on separate lines. I don't care at this point, but I'll have to make fixes otherwise it's going to frustrate me at a later date. I'm just pleased that I managed to create noob graphics in Graphics Gale Free Edition, then use alpha masking and also put code into multiple files. For a long time I was mystified by simple things like standard libraries, namespaces, and how to declare and define things properly. Now I'm making progress. Not long ago, I couldn't do anything in c++. Many years ago I tried SDL but I got annoyed by an IDE called Anjuta - I had a version where they butchered the features, and I couldn't access the menu which allows library linking. Then I tried compiling via Terminal which wasn't my thing. Net Beans seemed overkill. Years later I'm now settled on Code Blocks IDE.

 

I have come to the conclusion that I really do not like modding. When I was 12 I played a lot of Tiberian Sun mod maps and even messed up rules.ini for fun. In the years since, I never cared about modding. Half the purpose of BZ Redux (Battlezone 98) is mods, it seems. I don't have internet where I live so I can't download them, and I'm not sure if I'd want to. The BZ engine has its limits, and the studio that released BZ Redux said they didn't like the original code, they said it was bad. I really hope they bring back Battle Zone 2, though I also think it's disappointing that some of us still invest hope in code that's 16 years old. Sure, I like the old games, but it'd too weird to think we can extend those long-dead projects forever. Some things just have to die, like the Tiberian and Red Alert universes. A game in which America battles communist Russians is too weird for 2016. We're better off with new intellectual property and new code. Hide Kojima lost his IP but he's about to make new stuff for Playstation - that's how it should be.

 

It's too stupid to keep refreshing old games. I want to make new ones, with new engines. Tonight I'm going to get information on Richard Stallman's licensing and tomorrow I'll slap an extremist copyleft license to my files. Eventually I'll be on source forge. Forget mods, I'll make my own game engine ^_^

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I have come to the conclusion that I really do not like modding. When I was 12 I played a lot of Tiberian Sun mod maps and even messed up rules.ini for fun. In the years since, I never cared about modding. Half the purpose of BZ Redux (Battlezone 98) is mods, it seems. I don't have internet where I live so I can't download them, and I'm not sure if I'd want to. The BZ engine has its limits, and the studio that released BZ Redux said they didn't like the original code, they said it was bad. I really hope they bring back Battle Zone 2, though I also think it's disappointing that some of us still invest hope in code that's 16 years old. Sure, I like the old games, but it'd too weird to think we can extend those long-dead projects forever.

(...)

It's too stupid to keep refreshing old games.

 

Not liking mods is one thing. Categorically calling them weird and stupid is another.

 

Modding is one of the reasons people still play many games, and sometimes they improve the gameplay or bring something new without having to make a completely new engine which is supposed to do basically the same thing the official one does. There's a difference between xXFanboy123Xx's Rules which includes the "bestest new units and gameplay" and ****s everything up, and a high-quality production like Twisted Insurrection or Mental Omega. These guys chose to make mods becuase there's already enough they can do with the official builds of the game expanded with their own fixes and/or Ares (for the latter). A new engine may prove more efficient if done right, but it takes a considerable amount of time and effort, one modders most often cannot afford or deem unnecessary for their project's direction.

 

Some things just have to die, like the Tiberian and Red Alert universes. A game in which America battles communist Russians is too weird for 2016.

 

Says a guy with Tiberian Sun set as his favourite C&C.

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Many years ago I tried SDL but I got annoyed by an IDE called Anjuta - I had a version where they butchered the features, and I couldn't access the menu which allows library linking. Then I tried compiling via Terminal which wasn't my thing. Net Beans seemed overkill. Years later I'm now settled on Code Blocks IDE.

 

I don't code much, i gave a try to C++ and best free IDE out there is from MicroSoft called Visual Studio. Most of current programming languages, easy to use and free. Also, on MicroSoft Academy you find useful videos about programming in Python or using DirectX libraries.

Edited by Sonic

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Some things just have to die, like the Tiberian and Red Alert universes. A game in which America battles communist Russians is too weird for 2016. We're better off with new intellectual property and new code. Hide Kojima lost his IP but he's about to make new stuff for Playstation - that's how it should be.

 

It's too stupid to keep refreshing old games. I want to make new ones, with new engines. Tonight I'm going to get information on Richard Stallman's licensing and tomorrow I'll slap an extremist copyleft license to my files. Eventually I'll be on source forge. Forget mods, I'll make my own game engine ^_^

 

But Soviets with Tesla Suits and time-travelling Germans wasn't weird in 1996? You already made it clear in other threads that you have issues with U.S. foreign policy, but that doesn't mean everybody else has to follow that.

 

Also, if you don't like the mods or the games because they are "stupid", I suggest you... just don't play them. Problem solved.

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I don't code much, i gave a try to C++ and best free IDE out there is from MicroSoft called Visual Studio. Most of current programming languages, easy to use and free. Also, on MicroSoft Academy you find useful videos about programming in Python or using DirectX libraries.

 

Visual Studio is very good but 99% of the features I wouldn't use unless I was doing a commercial application or study. It's worth learning both sides I reckon (commercial software packages but also opensource/libre software). c++ is a great language I'd never stop using c++ and move to c# and java. Imagine only being able to write applications with one set of tools :( hence why: "Code Blocks FTW!!!!"

 

Also, if you don't like the mods or the games because they are "stupid", I suggest you... just don't play them. Problem solved.

 

I might play a mod once or twice but when the limitations of the original engine become apparent then it's time to find something else. I'd like a mod which makes Battle Zone ai navigate terrain better! What about a mod that makes Battle Zone units turn towards approaching enemies, instead of waiting 5 seconds of getting smashed, before choosing to retaliate? Even so, no mod will make the game crash less.

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Visual Studio is very good but 99% of the features I wouldn't use unless I was doing a commercial application or study. It's worth learning both sides I reckon (commercial software packages but also opensource/libre software).

So you're one of those people who worship open source for open source's sake instead of analyzing what each tool gives you individually?

 

c++ is a great language I'd never stop using c++ and move to c# and java.

This mentality will lead you nowhere. Learning multiple languages is a programmer's strength, if not an outright requirement. Nobody will hire a one-trick pony. You never know what your workplace will require, too.

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What I mean is I'll never totally stop c++. I will use c# and java for a job but I will never get rusty at c++ (it'll be good for the weekend). Memory allocation is a good thing for power users and I do not know what the licenses are on c# and java. I want to license my stuff to be totally independent. On multiple languages: in the future I might develop an HTML parser with either c or Python. Python has good string handling functions but then again I could write them myself in c.

 

I do worship open source for the sake of it, I've donated money to the FSF before and I've read their publications. Many of the FSF's projects will never happen because nobody cares. It doesn't matter because the FSF is great for the individual programmer. The FSF philosophy encompasses more than mere tools. It's about building a better society. Lofty ideals aside, I like the under dog thing too, FSF is extreme but then again so is DRM - it balances.

 

I've been using a password generator lately, two actually, and one of them outputs too many symbols for my liking. I could modify it if I wanted to which is a great practical thing, but I feel a lot healthier simply knowing it can be modified, whether or not I modify it. I don't read every line of code in the programs I run, but I know that I can do so if I want to. That's good security for me and I do 110% support the FSF's ideas. Recently when using Windows I've got effed off at the need for 3rd party tools for everything - off an unknown website, all proprietary code. Also Firefox plugins are another weird thing I don't like - things like video downloaders... who makes them, and how much $$$ do they make from selling your data to marketing companies? I spent ages looking for an md5 sum program for Windows - in the end I discovered it can be done in Power Shell. I'm not into the binary blob thing. I swear it isn't natural ^_^

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So you're one of those people who worship open source for open source's sake instead of analyzing what each tool gives you individually?

 

I just find it easier to use than Code::Blocks. In the end of the day, programmer wants to keep custody of the program he created. The whole open source thing has limits given by original creator. Just look at any Linux distro. Debian is a great example, because Ian has a vision how his OS should look and doesn't allow for any sweeping changes. Those rejected solutions finds place in Debian clones like KNOPIX or LMDE.

 

Yeah, open source is a great thing, unless you like 2 thousands OS distribution, differing by one or two functions.

 

 

I do worship open source for the sake of it, I've donated money to the FSF before and I've read their publications. Many of the FSF's projects will never happen because nobody cares. It doesn't matter because the FSF is great for the individual programmer. The FSF philosophy encompasses more than mere tools. It's about building a better society. Lofty ideals aside, I like the under dog thing too, FSF is extreme but then again so is DRM - it balances.

 

For me FSF runs like sect. They are offering freedom, but in same time are telling you which software to use. Like Hassid, who points out which meal is kosher and which isn't. And Stallman? He's the most radical GNU Linux geek. You can't use Ubuntu, because Amazon search engine. Can't use Debian, because of proprietary software in repositories... and so on. You end up with couple of suggested distros, which are unfinished, incompatible with each PC spec etc.

Edited by Traymen

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Recently when using Windows I've got effed off at the need for 3rd party tools for everything

 

So does Linux. The only difference is that many Linux distros come with many tools already bundled and that there's a unified system that allows you to access them all easily. Basically, it's just the way things are packaged and advertised.

 

off an unknown website, all proprietary code.

 

You speak as if no Windows-compatible open source programs exist.

 

Also Firefox plugins are another weird thing I don't like - things like video downloaders... who makes them, and how much $$$ do they make from selling your data to marketing companies?

 

1) You don't need to use those plugins.

2) Firefox looks more free and open-source than the corporate-owned Chrome which is more prone to "spying".

 

Yeah, open source is a great thing, unless you like 2 thousands OS distribution, differing by one or two functions.

 

I'm not against open source itself, I am against blindly worshipping it as if it's the only option that exists (some people do that). Proprietary software isn't all evil.

 

Sure that open source is the way to go, but it hasn't reached its full potential yet, so we still need proprietary stuff until that is achieved.

 

For me FSF runs like sect. They are offering freedom, but in same time are telling you which software to use. Like Hassid, who points out which meal is kosher and which isn't. And Stallman? He's the most radical GNU Linux geek. You can't use Ubuntu, because Amazon search engine. Can't use Debian, because of proprietary software in repositories... and so on. You end up with couple of suggested distros, which are unfinished, incompatible with each PC spec etc.

 

Don't know about FSF, but this description says better what I am against within the open source worshipping crowd.

Edited by Plokite_Wolf

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Don't know about FSF, but this description says better what I am against within the open source worshipping crowd.

 

It's not related to main topic here, but... i have to share it:

 

Yeah, this is Richard Stallman, aka GNU Linux guru (also FSF founder). Between pointing out what is kosher in software world, he eats something from his foot.

Edited by Traymen

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Some of the most awesome people in the world are eccentric ;) let's start a thread about it ^_^

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Read the terms and other stuff you have to agree to for sourceforge again and then think about putting your stuff there again if you really have this "my freedom has to be protected" idea.

The way you write about things really makes it clear you don't have a clue about what's going on in both programming and licencing.

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Years ago i had this falling out with, well let's call it what it is....this wannabe hippy pothead....it can be a pain living so close to the border with the netherlands *sigh*

So i was at the local watering hole with some mates and everything was all fun and beers and we were having this discussion with some of the other locals in the bar about cars....in detail about buying a new one for the sake of environmental reasons, co2 emissions, taxation laws and that stuff. When out of nowhere that local wannabe rasta spacecowboy shoots into ,what you now would consider a Game of Thrones related, SHAME!SHAME! rant. He was channeling his inner Don Quichote that found his windmill! He went on about how we were killing the environment, being responsible for cancer etcetc...he was a regular high sparrow before anyone knew what a high sparrow was.

Abit before his legendary rant i made the remark along the lines of: "Be things as they may, i can't afford a new car at the moment, i need to get to work and get around, everything else comes second. Obviously he didn't like that. So i whent after me like i was queen Circei, thill i channeled my inner Mountain and verbally bashed his head in. Told him i had to work, drive my wife and kids to work and school(i am not married and don't have kids but seemed like a good counter point at the time), i have bills and loans to pay off and a new car isn't in the budget and i'll be damned if i ride around with a wife and 2 kids on a ****ing mopet build out of stolen parts and smelling like vegetable oil fuel. He walked out jumped on his junkyard bike and road into the sunset smelling of wok oil or whatever he used as fuel. Thill this day i haven't seen him again *knock on wood*

Also binch watched several GoT episodes this past week...if you hadn't noticed.

 

In a way i feel the same about this topic. Like any gamer/modder i would love to make my own game, out of scratch. I just don't have the time to do it, i have other things to content with, can't bring myself to spend time learning anything or everything involved which would turn this into a career instead of a hobby. So i work of a existing engine, with the tools to my disposal when i can afford the time. I would love to do many a thing, i'm just realistic about what i aim to achieve.

 

And claiming working of a older engine or anything not proprietary is stupid and/or weird is like claiming a sculptor is stupid for working with stone. It takes strength and conviction to work within such a rigid medium.

 

There are mods out there that are better then "unique" IP's.

Personaly i would rather play and pay for something like Twisted insurrection then something like 8-bit armies. For me what the creators of TI did with the TS voxel engine feels like art where is what a actual Dev company did with 8-bit armies feels like wet sand flung at a wall.

 

Also eating something stuck under your shoe isn't eccentric, it is disgusting regardless of how brilliant a coder you're suppose to be. After kindergarden is a good timeframe to stop eating things of the ground imo, just sayin'.

Edited by Ravendark

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You could have shut up the eco guy easily if you had pointed out that producing a car produces about as much pollution than a regular car would in its lifetime. Thus buying a car for the sake of the planet is counter productive.

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There are mods out there that are better then "unique" IP's.

Personaly i would rather play and pay for something like Twisted insurrection then something like 8-bit armies. For me what the creators of TI did with the TS voxel engine feels like art where is what a actual Dev company did with 8-bit armies feels like wet sand flung at a wall.

 

No worries, 8-Bit Armies will get all the content - provided you but the next 15 pieces of DLC. ;)

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You could have shut up the eco guy easily if you had pointed out that producing a car produces about as much pollution than a regular car would in its lifetime. Thus buying a car for the sake of the planet is counter productive.

Eco is fine....opinion is fine...argument is fine...this lovely "dude" most definitely ate,smoked or shot something amazing. He was actually extremely disruptive and the owner kicked him out of the bar, because at some point he became very confrontational and aggressive...which seemed to be the thing with him every other weekend or so. Don't know what ever became of him, but he was famous locally for that god awefull stinking bike of his that ran on some ****ed up mixture of fuel and deep frying oil or whatever. He dressed in these overalls that looked like he angerbanged a paintmixer and instead of wearing a normal motorcycle helmet he had like this ww2 german motorcycle helmet. It was quite the character.

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In a way i feel the same about this topic. Like any gamer/modder i would love to make my own game, out of scratch. I just don't have the time to do it, i have other things to content with, can't bring myself to spend time learning anything or everything involved which would turn this into a career instead of a hobby. So i work of a existing engine, with the tools to my disposal when i can afford the time. I would love to do many a thing, i'm just realistic about what i aim to achieve.

 

What with attitude of "aim for the moon, because you might hit a star"?

 

 

And claiming working of a older engine or anything not proprietary is stupid and/or weird is like claiming a sculptor is stupid for working with stone. It takes strength and conviction to work within such a rigid medium.

 

 

The argument which FSF and Stallman frequently raise is, you as a customer are bounded to functionality coded by owner of software. You can't change a thing, because it's proprietary even though the code itself and IDE used to write the program are free to use. Everything they want, is to add possibility of changing a code, which can be charged. You may sell software under some fee, but you can't forbid changing the code itself by the users.

 

I kinda like the idea, because it's more... vital nowadays. There are some old games (you name them) which code is obsolete and can't be changed, because still belongs to someone who don't give a damn about them anymore. Good example is ReVolt. Some guys made an upgrade patch for it to run on modern PC's... but some company interrupted saying, that they are now new owners of this title, and they are not allowing for any new community patches.
The guys who made this "upgrade patch" had to remove it from their server, because - yeah, you guessed it - they were threatened to be summoned before court. They wouldn't make any money on this software. They did it on their free time and no-one paid them for this work. But what most funny is, after they removed it from their server, the company took their patch, made some cosmetic changes and sold game on GOG with this "upgrade patch".

After all, even unmentioned by name company had to pull down the game from GOG, because - yeah, you guess again - original patch developers wanted to sue them...

I just can't stand one thing with those guys from FSF - "Don't use proprietary software, because EVIL11!!11!". The suggested free OS's are useless if you don't know bash scripting, some programming languages and don't have any knowledge about programming drivers. Yeah, i tried to be Stallman follower, but it's tough and most of the time overwhelming. You want to connect to multimedia projector? It doesn't recognize the hardware. Oh, chief wants to see report from last month? Forget it, because .docx is proprietary and OpenOffice / LibreOffice makes a mess from your file. Each time in your life there is some obstacle which could be overcome, but everyone around you are self-obssesed fools who are using Windows, Office and other totally useless stuff.
Edited by Traymen

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What with attitude of "aim for the moon, because you might hit a star"?

For those that choose to mod, the moon is our destination, it is within acceptable distance, travel time and resources needed to get there. Aiming for a distant star is all good and well, but with the resources and time management i have i understand i will either never get there or get there after the star has burned out. While the moon might not be that interstellar adventure you dream about, it already has working airlocks, hydroponics etc and i can just connect my colonization module to the existing moon base and expand the lunar infrastructure with my piece of the corner. And i'm happy.

In a way steam early access and indie pages and kickstarter etcetc is filled with brave interstellar explorers who aimed for a star, got there barely, never at all or orbit a dying world because they had the resources to just arrive there but not to build their colony. There are indie graveyards filled with wannabe dev's that didn't understand the journey.

Edited by Ravendark

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For those that choose to mod, the moon is our destination, it is within acceptable distance, travel time and resources needed to get there. Aiming for a distant star is all good and well, but with the resources and time management i have i understand i will either never get there or get there after the star has burned out. While the moon might not be that interstellar adventure you dream about, it already has working airlocks, hydroponics etc and i can just connect my colonization module to the existing moon base and expand the lunar infrastructure with my piece of the corner. And i'm happy.

In a way steam early access and indie pages and kickstarter etcetc is filled with brave interstellar explorers who aimed for a star, got there barely, never at all or orbit a dying world because they had the resources to just arrive there but not to build their colony. There are indie graveyards filled with wannabe dev's that didn't understand the journey.

 

 

Still i want to remind you, that there were successful mods which not only gave prestige to developers, but also changed gaming industry. For example WarCraft III mod, DotA. I found an article few weeks ago claiming that DotA actually killed RTS genre, and it's hard not to agree with. So yeah, sometimes (not often) you might hit Alpha Centauri just by pure luck.

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I made an update to my program. Movement is now a million times smoother but I need to stop the image from teleporting 32 pixels at a time. It's easy enough to update the actual coordinates, and have the image coordinates slide into place. I did that when I was 15, using Blitz Max. Now it's possible to place bombs with spacebar but they don't yet destroy terrain. This project already has design issues because the alpha-blend part at the top of my wall bitmap is too large, and it looks ugly when I stack walls vertically. Anyway: link.

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Still i want to remind you, that there were successful mods which not only gave prestige to developers, but also changed gaming industry. For example WarCraft III mod, DotA. I found an article few weeks ago claiming that DotA actually killed RTS genre, and it's hard not to agree with. So yeah, sometimes (not often) you might hit Alpha Centauri just by pure luck.

 

 

I would disagree that DotA killed RTS. That would be like saying the MMORPG killed the RPG. Both are still around, but only one is a massive money making scheme for the clueless with credit cards who need to "win".

 

Some of the most popular Android games are all RTS. Good grief, they run commercials for them with hi-viz actors!

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I would disagree that DotA killed RTS.

 

Then why does everyone play League of Faggends instead of any RTS (with the ever-present exception of StarCraft II)? Why did the successful RTS releases stop after DotA and LoL became a popular thing? Why are there no more good RTS games in the production, even from people who used to make them?

 

That would be like saying the MMORPG killed the RPG. Both are still around, but only one is a massive money making scheme for the clueless with credit cards who need to "win".

 

If anything, RPGs are still in production and are popular. Look at The Elder Scrolls and Witcher series.

 

Some of the most popular Android games are all RTS. Good grief, they run commercials for them with hi-viz actors!

 

50% of them are stolen at minimum, 100% of them are mobile games ffs!

Edited by Plokite_Wolf

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It's pretty much impossible to tell anyway. If for some magical reason MOBAs didn't exist, RTS games could be as popular now as MOBAs are... or be as popular as they are right now, with the MOBA niche being empty. We don't know.

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Arguing that a genre killed another genre just sounds utterly stupid, in my opinion. Correlation does not imply causation.

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In this case, it does. MOBAs are dumber and simpler than RTSes, hence they are more appealing to the masses.

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