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jeffnz

Programming from scratch vs. mods

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In this case, it does.

All that sounds like to me is this and this.

MOBAs are dumber

Subjective and irrelevant.

and simpler

Subjective statement disguised in objective clothes.

hence they are more appealing to the masses.

Baseless. And also this.

 

 

For clarity, I hate MOBAs. I subjectively agree that they are dumb, but blaming them for "killing" the RTS is ridiculous (also, as I've said previously, I don't think that the RTS genre is dead or that it can be dead).

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All that sounds like to me is this and this.

 

Prove it.

 

Subjective statement disguised in objective clothes.

 

One hero unit tries to advance on the map while leveling up. An average RTS is deeper than that.

 

but blaming them for "killing" the RTS is ridiculous

 

"Subjective statement disguised in objective clothes."

 

(also, as I've said previously, I don't think that the RTS genre is dead or that it can be dead).

 

Why do so few people play it, then, at least compared to modern-warfare-style shooters and MOBAs? Why have so few been released in the past few years and why isn't anyone (except maybe Relic) trying to make one?

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Traditional RTS were time consuming, the last 5 or more years there has been a shift towards shorter games or game session, modern rts are aimed to play faster, last shorter. Hence why concepts like base building, resource management have taken a back seat to fast paced action. Specialy when it comes to multiplayer. Mobas basicly offer that, they remove the "simcity" aspect from a rts, remove anything that can "unnecessarily" prolong a game like objectives, missions, resource management etc. You focus on 1 unit with 1 goal, kill and win.

 

The reason modern rts are shallow like grey goo or specialy 8-bit armies, is because it is aimed towards another generation then the one that started with c&c TD. It is why things like walls and gates got removed from TW/KW they could be used to trottle or slow down the game speed not only because EALA could'nt get the pathfinding to work correctly.

 

I remember playing TD like a simcity game....having 3 types of walls (sandbag, chainlink and stone) wasn't there for the strategy part, even more so the ai was dumb as **** when it came to sandbags, it was obviously there to groom a base.

I used to build my base, wall in the enemy, go afk just to let the tiberium regrow on the highest speed because i loved to build bases. i took sometimes over 2hours for a mission, the cover ops mission were my favorite just by map designs. I ****ing build kingdoms in the Black Out mission map!

 

So modern RTS cater to 2 different crowds....the young one that wants shorter games but also grow bored more rapidly, the older crowd that misses " the classic" game components. So RTS looses popularity with both.

Edited by Ravendark

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Traditional RTS were time consuming, the last 5 or more years there has been a shift towards shorter games or game session, modern rts are aimed to play faster, last shorter. Hence why concepts like base building, resource management have taken a back seat to fast paced action. Specialy when it comes to multiplayer. Mobas basicly offer that, they remove the "simcity" aspect from a rts, remove anything that can "unnecessarily" prolong a game like objectives, missions, resource management etc. You focus on 1 unit with 1 goal, kill and win.

 

What he said.

 

I remember playing TD like a simcity game....having 3 types of walls (sandbag, chainlink and stone) wasn't there for the strategy part, even more so the ai was dumb as **** when it came to sandbags, it was obviously there to groom a base.

I used to build my base, wall in the enemy, go afk just to let the tiberium regrow on the highest speed because i loved to build bases. i took sometimes over 2hours for a mission, the cover ops mission were my favorite just by map designs. I ****ing build kingdoms in the Black Out mission map!

 

I do the same thing. Functional. Strategic. Winning is better when you look good doing it.

 

What happened to the gaming industry some would call an evolution. I remember when WarCraft:Orcs and Humans was a new release at Wal-Mart. Now you have BlizzCon.

 

Ravendark's analysis would be on par with discussing how old tech was replaced with new tech. The cassette vs the cd.

 

There are different segments of people. let's say you have the 'high end' people who ride the bleeding edge of technology. Behind them you have the 'traditional' group who wait until the tech is older, more stable, then get into it. Finally, trailing behind them is the 'low tech' group who are slow to adapt. The huge profits come from the high end group who scream 'take my money!' so they can have the latest, greatest thing. Once the traditional group gets involved, the high end group has most likely moved on to something else, while the traditional group keeps it alive. The product may or may not be viable anymore by the time the low tech group gets involved.

 

The statement that DotA killed RTS is the same thing as saying only what the high end group likes is relevant. People do get burned out on MMORPGs like LoL, Rohan, etc. Especially when the fantasy hits the wallet and its empty. The mobile games are here, for now, but look at how many there is. In another 2-3 years will they even be remembered? Maybe by some of the traditional group who never play it anymore.

 

But people like us, who sit here reading, of all things, a command and conquer forum which is based on a game that was originally released in 1995---21 years ago. The last release was in 2008 and Red Alert was 2009.

 

We look at a rainbow. You like the first color red and I like the last color violet. Which of us is more right? They're both colors on the opposite ends of the spectrum.That's what games are: different colors of the rainbow.

 

But when you're a corporation whose sole purpose is to produce products for high revenue volume, the high end group is who gets catered to. Every time.

Edited by dvs1

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If anything, RPGs are still in production and are popular. Look at The Elder Scrolls and Witcher series.

 

You haven't played TES unless you've been through and survived the dungeons of Arena and Daggerfall. I liked them so much I bought Redguard when it came out.

 

 

50% of them are stolen at minimum, 100% of them are mobile games ffs!

 

There was no distinction on platform base. NES vs Sega vs vs MS vs Android/iPhone vs. a Modern computer. If you want to split hairs, start with a bald head; you'll be finished quicker.

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The statement that DotA killed RTS is the same thing as saying only what the high end group likes is relevant.

 

Unfortunately, both are true, which is why we have had so many copy-paste shooters released in the past 10 years alone.

 

People do get burned out on MMORPGs like LoL, Rohan, etc.

 

Since when is LoL a MMORPG?

 

We look at a rainbow. You like the first color red and I like the last color violet. Which of us is more right? They're both colors on the opposite ends of the spectrum.That's what games are: different colors of the rainbow.

 

I'm having trouble parsing through this overly vague and unfinished analogy.

 

But when you're a corporation whose sole purpose is to produce products for high revenue volume, the high end group is who gets catered to. Every time.

 

One corporation is not the entire industry. If you must know, there is one other corporation that was the last to release a successful RTS. It's called Blizzard. There is another which funds Firaxis, one of the last remaining TBS studios. It's called Take-Two (2K). There are some indie studios like Amplitude that do TBSes as well, but none that make RTSes (unless you count Petroglyph, who self-published 8-Bit Armies after shifting between publishers several times).

 

You haven't played TES unless you've been through and survived the dungeons of Arena and Daggerfall. I liked them so much I bought Redguard when it came out.

 

....so?

 

There was no distinction on platform base. NES vs Sega vs vs MS vs Android/iPhone vs. a Modern computer. If you want to split hairs, start with a bald head; you'll be finished quicker.

 

Mobile games are indeed irrelevant unless they're called Candy Crush, Bejeweled or Hearthstone. Almost no other title even gets as popular as a B-production on a PC in the 1990s.

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Traditional RTS were time consuming, the last 5 or more years there has been a shift towards shorter games or game session, modern rts are aimed to play faster, last shorter.

 

First of all, MOBAs are also time consuming. If you compare average RTS match with any MOBA the results will show, that on one match in any DotA clone you'll spend more time than on any RTS.

 

But we have to distinguish "normal" RTS's from Grand Strategy Games such as Hearts of Iron. While games in StarCraft or any other modern typical strategy are more dynamic, such rule not follows for Crusader Kings or mentioned above HoI. Multiplayer games for those can take weeks, sometimes even months. Yes, you save the MP game to play it again at next meeting.

 

So i would disagree that C&C games were more demanding than modern RTS's.

 

Hence why concepts like base building, resource management have taken a back seat to fast paced action. Specialy when it comes to multiplayer. Mobas basicly offer that, they remove the "simcity" aspect from a rts, remove anything that can "unnecessarily" prolong a game like objectives, missions, resource management etc. You focus on 1 unit with 1 goal, kill and win.

 

You're wrong. It looks like you try to imply the simplicity of MOBA because of lack of base building, while in fact there is much more micromanagement. I don't want to go into details, but i'd like to see how simple is for you to win any MOBA match, because personally i can say, that it isn't that simple as you describe it.

 

The reason modern rts are shallow like grey goo or specialy 8-bit armies, is because it is aimed towards another generation then the one that started with c&c TD. It is why things like walls and gates got removed from TW/KW they could be used to trottle or slow down the game speed not only because EALA could'nt get the pathfinding to work correctly.

 

You're so wrong here...

Walls are used in most of the Relic games, but they focus more on micromanagement rather than macromanagement. They give cover, give advantage for defenders, but after all they can be destroyed, so you have to think forward anyway. Unlike C&C games, they have more applications than walling construction yard.

 

So i would say EALA abandoned walls due to lack of usefulness for gameplay.

 

So modern RTS cater to 2 different crowds....the young one that wants shorter games but also grow bored more rapidly, the older crowd that misses " the classic" game components. So RTS looses popularity with both.

 

Try StarCraft 2 campaign on Hard difficulty, or make some matches online. Game can take even an hour. For usual MOBA game it at least take 40 minutes. The longest game i've played was 2 hours.

 

So no - they aren't that fast and short. They're more dynamic than static base building simcity-like RTS's. Also there is something such as learning curve, which for RTS is very demanding, while for MOBA less steep. You can grab one hero and play it all the time, while in RTS you have to learn some openings etc.

 

 

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I have to agree with that. "Kids these days have no patience and only like watered-down stuff" is a popular cliché, but it's ultimately just that - a cliché. I'd even say that it's the other way around: The classic RTS game are the ones that are fast-paced and short. SC may require handing out orders fast and managing squads ata high speed, but the overall time you spend in a match seems a lot longer to me.

 

There are exceptions, of course, like the original Age of Empire - but that's mainly because building anything in AoE takes half an hour. :D

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My boy is 10. I started him on wc3 2 years ago and this spring introduced him to c&c and red alert. After school was out, I got one of the board games out of the basement from when I was much younger called Tower of the Wizard King. Set it up, read the rules over again, and we played it. After we went through one game, he said to me that its too bad they don't make games like this anymore, that everything was like modern warfare. Then he asked me if I had other board games like this. I have others like Clue, Clue: The Great Museum Caper, Weapons & Warriors, Risk, Dominoes 6 12 and 15 sets, Triominoes, and a few packs of cards to show him.

 

We could discuss the pros and cons of the different genre of gaming for a decade or more into a stalemate of opinions, but I wonder if the younger generation, those born after 2000, would actually appreciate the older games like we did.

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Guest Rabbit

Hey bud, I took a look at your original post and figured I could help you out.

 

x = 50;
y = 200; //moved this to a second line

I've cleaned up your code a bit, I hope this improves the quality of your game.

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I've cleaned up your code a bit, I hope this improves the quality of your game.

I protest! You created a newline character that the compiler will have to strip out :mad:

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