visceroid

That's fine with me. It should've been done a while ago.

Do you really think that people discover a tourist only by his clothes? I can see how foolish you are when you compare a developing nation with a developed one that had been indutrialized more than a century ago. It's like awarding a runner with false start! Do you know what China was like at the beginning of the last century? Do you know when communism was introduced in China? You clearly DO have a sense of history! BTW, for your information, there're loads of people wearing your "junk" here, and not all of them are rich. So stop being so immature and laughing at anything you saw and heard.

Indeed, I'm saying that you haven't enough info, or have been misinformed, to discuss communism, or at least communism in China. And if you think this is an insult then I'm sorry. You clearly did not understand. These are not my words and I meant that they are info FOR REFERENCE and PROBABLY propagandas. Up till now I've never expressed anything anti-capitalism myself, I'm not a pro-communist either, I was just pointing out that this will be a frutile debate. Don't think that you have a flawless view of the world and won't be fooled by propaganda. 8) What makes you believe that this is propaganda and hold such a biased view is a form of propaganda in itself. And you will eventually come to know that most of the human history was written in blood, and full of bitter struggles. As I've said it, no one knows what truth is. Isn't your knowledge of the world taught by your country? What makes you think that China is a "fascist" :shock: nation, even in present tense? And this is more or less an insult. Are you implying: 1. I'm a fascist or 2. I'm a pro-fascist or 3. I'm a victim of fascism? Whether or not it will work, I don't know. But first of all, do you dare say that you understand human nature, completely and exactly? Do you know what communism really is, other than the unrealistic utopia and the tyranny? Have you read all the books by Karl Marks? If not then think twice before saying "never". Well then communism can be discribed in this way: the pie gets bigger and bigger and finally when we've all taken what we need, there's plenty to spare. And why would I see wealth as a limited resource :?: Can't be touched, but can be watched. And in our country, when you're not satisfied, you can visit the government and make suggestions or requests. No need to say anything anti-government, it's as simple as that. OK, I was wrong about this one. But one thing: we do not measure freedom by number of opposition parties, as you do in the USA. Believe it or not, we have a CONSTITUTION too! And you've said it, there is always danger in judiciary. Agreed on this one.

We do not say "capitalism sucks" or "capitalism is bad" these days. We say that we should learn from foreign countries. What have we learnt? Capitalism? Maybe. Call it as you will. But in a way we are breaking a path to communism. I did not say China's economy is communist. I said it's SOCIALIST. What's that? That's when you look at nations and histories of the world, find the best solution, and deploy it. And if you say it's not doable, you mean it's only in theory. But every system started with a theory. You said it yourself, "sounds good in logic". If the logic's correct, then it must work. The best way to examine the logic is to put it into practice. And capitalism's success? Everything's a success when its purpose's fulfilled. I wanted money, I robbed a bank, ah, what a success! But then I would be thrown in jail. Was slavery a success? Was feudalism a success? Wow of course! Are they all humane? No. It's not just about giving out opportunity to everyone, it's about giving aid and support. Simply, cultural difference. Here in China, when we say things, we mean it, especially regarding politics. And we tend to play it up. So when you say you hate the president, it is interpreted as "I want to kill the president and start a revolution" and you're considered a threat. So why would I say that to show that I have free speech? In USA, you play it down. You say "I want to level the White House", because you've just had a bad day. That's no freedom of speech. That's all about defining "threat". Other than that, I've to say that tho we're not totally free, we enjoy more freedom than you think, and that you're sadly misinformed.

This entire thread have ignored one crucial fact, that is, that you have no right or power to make others agree with you, or accept the facts you presented, if you made no investigations into the matter yourself, or never carefully examined the core of the problem. In a word, the problem is "misunderstanding". Frankly, I don't know exactly how communism is understood in the western world, but according to my information, it is known as "the central-governed social system with a bloody nature, which tends to oppress freedom of speech and publication, reduce productivity, and widen the poverty gap". Well this is pretty ironic, because capitalism in my country is pretty much understood in the SAME way. It goes "the so-called free social system with a bloody nature, which tends to promote false freedom of speech and publication, reduce productivity, and steal wealth from the working class in a silent, peaceful manner, therefore widening the poverty gap". Let us not decide which one is "propaganda" just yet, for we all receive information from others that isn't 100% the truth. A debate without a decent understanding of its subject is stupid enough. What I'm going to say is, that communism is something that has never been realized. There have never been a true-communism on this planet. The "communism"s you were talking about are the false ones, the remains of oppression and exploitation in the name of communism. Perhaps some of you should know more about "socialism", that's what you cannot explain with a pie. I'm not going to define "true" communism, but here are a few things that I would like to clarify: 1. I'm from China. Careful, it's not "I'm from communism", or "I will fully support my government". Not "I have no freedom of speech" either. 2. All governments, all governing classes, are alike. They take wealth from the rest when they can, and limit the freedom of their people to remain in power. If I say I'm a communist in the USA, I will be immediately banished. Also, the freedoms, the chances, the opportunities you spoke of, can more or less be taken away, and sometimes you can't even notice. 3. So stop this c&c (communism & capitalism) discussion, and talk C&C(Command & Conquer)! 4. I'm not a communist, but I'm a network-communist who promotes internet sharing. If C&C3's good enough(the gameplay, the storyline), then why not? It has NOTHING to do with politics and that's it. I don't quite understand the meaning of the last option of this vote.