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Mjjstral

Remove Zoom Limits - Exploit Map

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Mjjstral    18

This is a sage engine bug exploit map pack for all sage games post C&C Generals/ZeroHour.

After loading the map once, you will have limitless zoom for all maps you start afterwards. In skirmish and even in multiplayer ! The map hereby only deals as an agent/injector to trigger the engine bug exploit. So technically speaking it is a map but actually it's more a mod without actual mod.

The changes are not permanent (only RAM related) and everything will be back to normal if you restart the game.

The following games are supported with this pack:
Command and Conquer 3 Tiberium Wars
Command and Conquer 3 Kane's Wrath
Command and Conquer Red Alert 3 Uprising
Command and Conquer 4
Lord of the Rings The Battle for Middle-earth 1
Lord of the Rings The Battle for Middle-earth 2
Lord of the Rings The Battle for Middle-earth 2 - Rise of the Witch-King

Unfortunately it doesn't work for:
Command and Conquer Generals
Command and Conquer Generals Zero Hour
Command and Conquer Red Alert 3

How does this even work ?
It uses a map script that triggers an engine exploit by not reseting a special camera state.
In addition the map render distance gets set 3 times higher to avoid black borders for high zooms.

Installation: Put the map folder "!RemoveZoomLimits" for the respective game into this folder (for your case):
C:\Users\>Username<\AppData\Roaming\>GameName<\Maps

Entire maps viewable !

EntireMapViewsPossible.thumb.jpg.43a25c6a342d3a5881181ccf25f2c14d.jpg

 

Edited by Zee Hypnotist
Links Removed - Zee
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I knew the limited zooming was more terrible in RA3/C&C4 than in C&C3/KW and BFME2.

But I am just wondering, could you find a way to make this work permanently via a patch for those recent games? Also what about the first BFME (it's not in the list)?

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Mjjstral    18
8 hours ago, PurpleGaga27 said:

But I am just wondering, could you find a way to make this work permanently via a patch for those recent games? Also what about the first BFME (it's not in the list)?

The advantage of this exploit is the modlessness and therefore multiplayer compatibility. This exact exploit is only possible via loading a map once. Via mod I came up with similiar solutions to have better zoom (3 different ways in meta mod) but all these always require user input either via player power button or via adjusting the autoconfig file.

Your're right I didn't test it for BFME 1. I need to install it first.

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Mjjstral    18

Ok I've added Lord of the Rings The Battle for Middle-earth 1 as well as Command and Conquer Red Alert 3 Uprising. Unfortunately it doesn't work for vanilla red alert 3, sorry.

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Mjjstral    18

It's ridiculous, they removed my posts about this from the gamereplays forums. Do people really consider this exploit to be an unfair advantage ? It's just a map....

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Where did you post it in GameReplays? I mean there's many game sections from BFME to C&C4. I think this exploit bug fix may affect multiplayer btw.

However, to make this official in C&C3 and KW unofficial patches, you may have to ask cnc315d34d (aka CGF123 or CrazyGDIFan123) in GameReplays forums.

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Mjjstral    18
1 hour ago, PurpleGaga27 said:

Where did you post it in GameReplays?

I posted it 7 times (for each game this thing works) because I consider this to be quite a beneficial game changer that every player should make use of. Sage engine games and their max zoom out have always been a problem in my eyes. For C&C Generals we could fix the zoom easily in the gamedata.ini. But that didn't work for most games after Generals. Now we have an easy modless solution that even works for multiplayer. It's a huge coincidence that I even found this bug, unfortunately 10 years too late for most former players lol.

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Zee Hypnotist    243

This is not a "beneficial game changer."  This is a straight-up exploit.

If it works as you describe, it gives an advantage to players who have the exploit over those who don't.  That is cheating, plain and simple.

You can argue all you want that it just lets you see the full map, but the radar (and the ability to disable the radar) is the main reason this is an exploit.

Example: If you can see the entire map, this prevents an unknowing player from attempting to sneak players into one side of your base while distracting you by attacking another.

 

Additionally, the fact that this is spliced into a map and not a conventional mod makes it look even more suspicious, as if you are intentionally trying to encourage people to avoid mismatches normally caused by modded files.

 

I have removed all links to this download.  I'm leaving the thread up so people can continue to discuss the concept, however, if any other admins feel that it should be closed entirely, I leave that up to them.

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Plokite_Wolf    142
On 24. 06. 2017. at 6:40 PM, Mjjstral said:

Do people really consider this exploit to be an unfair advantage ? It's just a map....

As Zee already said, it's an exploit. In gaming, exploits are cheating, and cheating is frowned upon. It takes no rocket science degree to know why those threads were removed on GameReplays (a multiplayer community first and foremost) and ultimately here.

On C&C:Online, using such maps is a BANNABLE OFFENSE, which we've enforced since the beginning. https://forums.revora.net/forum/2738-fair-play-reports/

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I believe the limited zooming was to prevent players from seeing farther and to make better tactical moves, all just to avoid cheating and I had no clue this exploit can affect multiplayer.

I guess this founded experiment is something noting for as such exploits like this isn't allowed in any C&C multiplayer game.

But what about the one zooming feature that lets you see the sky texturing from the Generals 2 mod for C&C3? Is that also not allowed in multiplayer (since Company of Heroes has a camera feature like that)?

Edited by PurpleGaga27

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Plokite_Wolf    142
21 minutes ago, PurpleGaga27 said:

I believe the limited zooming was to prevent players from seeing farther and to make better tactical moves, all just to avoid cheating and I had no clue this exploit can affect multiplayer.

And there goes your absolute inability to read - to read the text of the first post in this very thread, in fact.

 

22 minutes ago, PurpleGaga27 said:

I guess this founded experiment is something noting for as such exploits like this isn't allowed in any C&C multiplayer game.

And there goes your need to post just for the sake of posting something, which everyone wants you to quit.

 

24 minutes ago, PurpleGaga27 said:

But what about the one zooming feature that lets you see the sky texturing from the Generals 2 mod for C&C3? Is that also not allowed in multiplayer (since Company of Heroes has a camera feature like that)?

It's a mod, so different rules apply there (for starters, all players have that zoom level), and skyboxes are seen on the different extreme of zooming, which isn't particularly useful or exploitable in mods (but would still be considered unwanted modifying in regular multiplayer, as stupid as it would be there).

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Mjjstral    18

Well my intentionts with this were entirely good. There are clearly more singleplayer players that benefit from this then multiplayer players using it as an advantage especially for the BFME games (utilitarianism). If we look at steamdb and cnc-online we can guess a ration for sp:mp of 1:15. And for the multiplayer part the thing is that you can easily detect if someone uses it with help of the replay (from the "eyes of player mode"). So in the end this is actually a good filter to detect all "dishonest" people and let them get banned if necessary. So as all things in live this exploit has it's polarity. Nuclear fission for instance can be used for good to produce power or for bad to produce weapons. But is that a reason to completely ban the knowledge of nuclear fission ?

I unintentionally found other even undetectable and by far more heavy exploits that work in multiplayer too but these I will never make public because the singleplayer benefit is just to slim.

Edited by Mjjstral

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Plokite_Wolf    142
1 hour ago, Mjjstral said:

If we look at steamdb and cnc-online we can guess a ration for sp:mp of 1:15.

Rule of thumb: don't measure C&C popularity through SteamDB. There's a lot of people who use the retail and/or Origin releases, which SteamDB can't catch.

 

1 hour ago, Mjjstral said:

There are clearly more singleplayer players that benefit from this

????

 

1 hour ago, Mjjstral said:

So in the end this is actually a good filter to detect all "dishonest" people and let them get banned if necessary.

It's also a good way to drive more people into doing it.

 

1 hour ago, Mjjstral said:

I unintentionally found other even undetectable and by far more heavy exploits that work in multiplayer too but these I will never make public because the singleplayer benefit is just to slim.

Yeah, TW and KW are particularly known for their exploitable engine. Some exploits which were fixed in TW were restored in KW because some idiot at EALA gave BreakAway an outdated build of TW to build the expansion upon.

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Mjjstral    18

I mean there are at least 15 sp players for each mp player.

42 minutes ago, Plokite_Wolf said:

There's a lot of people who use the retail and/or Origin releases, which SteamDB can't catch.

That makes my argument even more valid because then there are maybe even 30 sp players for each mp player (you can actually see the number of cnc-online players here, hence my deduction).

So if we deal with this in a philanthropic way and use utilitarianism logic, this exploit should be public for the benefit of the majority of players.

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Plokite_Wolf    142
Just now, Mjjstral said:

I mean there are at least 15 sp players for each mp player.

Based on what reliable metric?

 

1 minute ago, Mjjstral said:

That makes my argument even more valid because then there are maybe even 30 sp players for each mp player (you can actually see the number of cnc-online players here, hence my deduction).

From 15 to 30, hmm? You're just making this shit up as you go, it seems.

And don't lecture me on C&C:Online status, I'm staff there. (BTW, now is European afternoon, which is not a peak time, check it out tonight).

 

Just now, Mjjstral said:

So if we deal with this in a philanthropic way and use utilitarianism logic, this exploit should be public for the benefit of the majority of players.

How does sharing info on how to exploit the game benefit anyone except cheaters?

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Mjjstral    18
2 minutes ago, Plokite_Wolf said:

Based on what reliable metric?

See the relation between SteamDBCurrentPlayer and CnCOnlineCurrentPlayers. Reliable ? Not sure but at least we can assume that most players use singleplayer (it has always been in rts games like that, a rts game dev once told me).

6 minutes ago, Plokite_Wolf said:

From 15 to 30, hmm? You're just making this shit up as you go, it seems.

Don't nail me on statements like that. It's clear that this is a really rough guess and people can make their own opinion (but I'm almost sure more people use the origin+retail then steam version).

8 minutes ago, Plokite_Wolf said:

And don't lecture me on C&C:Online status

Sorry it was not in any way my intention to offend you in any way !

9 minutes ago, Plokite_Wolf said:

(BTW, now is European afternoon, which is not a peak time, check it out tonight).

Yes but that doesn't matter because the steamdb current player number which I used for my rough guess also coreelates to the same peak times.

10 minutes ago, Plokite_Wolf said:

How does sharing info on how to exploit the game benefit anyone except cheaters?

For singleplayer players as I stated. I myself could't play the BFME games (in sp of course) without more zoom out. Also for CNC4 it is really great to have such an amazingly better overview. You should test it, it's a complete game changer to the good. And as you see this map exploit also supports RA3 uprising which is as you know a pure singleplayer game.

I'm sorry that I caused so much trouble. I was never into all that multiplayer stuff but now I see the point and the problems for that regarding the strict fair play rules. Still in my opinion more people benefit from it then not. This map has been a part of metamod already quite some time, I just thought to bring it to the people as a seperate thing.

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Plokite_Wolf    142
6 minutes ago, Mjjstral said:

See the relation between SteamDBCurrentPlayer and CnCOnlineCurrentPlayers. Reliable ? Not sure but at least we can assume that most players use singleplayer (it has always been in rts games like that, a rts game dev once told me).

No, because:

1) Not all Steam C&C players play multiplayer, let alone on C&C:Online

2) Not all C&C:Online users are from Steam

3) Again, SteamDB C&C stats are meaningless.

 

There are more SP players than MP players, true, but any numbers that anyone posts are total nonsense unless a full and proper query among players is made.

 

6 minutes ago, Mjjstral said:

For singleplayer players as I stated. I myself could't play the BFME games (in sp of course) without more zoom out. Also for CNC4 it is really great to have such an amazingly better overview.

The standard zoom levels in BFME games and even Generals/Zero Hour are indeed insufficient because they were calibrated to low 4:3 resolutions. Unofficial patches do change them (GenTool, BFME1 1.06, BFME2 1.07-1.09, RotWK 2.02), but to a degree that is acceptable for everyone, doesn't give unfair advantages and is done to all players, with community input on the exact level of zoom in some cases.

What you did in the screenshot above is the most blatant example of the furthest extreme, and we've banned for less. (Also, attaching the change to RAM, really? I mean, really? How can you possibly defend something that effectively borks your entire instance of the game?)

And you still didn't say how exactly a stupidly high level of zoom benefits everyone, and SP players in particular when it's a clear cheat.

 

6 minutes ago, Mjjstral said:

And as you see this map exploit also supports RA3 uprising which is as you know a pure singleplayer game.

Irrelevant.

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Mjjstral    18
42 minutes ago, Plokite_Wolf said:

No, because:

1) Not all Steam C&C players play multiplayer, let alone on C&C:Online

2) Not all C&C:Online users are from Steam

3) Again, SteamDB C&C stats are meaningless.

See Bayes' theorem

42 minutes ago, Plokite_Wolf said:

(Also, attaching the change to RAM, really? I mean, really? How can you possibly defend something that effectively borks your entire instance of the game?)

Misunderstanding from your side. Every map script of course affects the ram. By saying it this way I just wanted to point out that it is not a permanent file related change or something.

The thing is this exploit is so damn simple. You just need to activate the camera letterbox mode and exit the map, done... I'm not sure but maybe this even works if you exit the map during campaign camera letterbox mode parts. Then you don't even need this map. Also there are many custom maps played in mp (td,aod maps especiallly) with cinematic like intros, just exit the game during that phase and boom you also have that same exploit enabled. Enter another mp game after that and unintentionally zoom out more...

Edited by Mjjstral

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Mjjstral    18
20 minutes ago, Plokite_Wolf said:

Which you cannot apply because you have no numbers to use it with...

Of course we can have a very reliable three-sigma-rule heuristic (99.7%) based set of numbers if we wish. And for my argumentation a lower conservative estimation would always be valid. Let's not spam this forum with this, better write pm's if you need further explanations ;)

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Maybe this feature can be used only with spectating (not playing on the field), especially for referees and administrators to watch multiplayer game matchups and determine to see who's cheating or not. But that's just a suggestion. All Worldbuilder programs have limitless zooming, but there's no need to have this ingame for all SAGE games.

I think it's best not to discover other exploits that EA once fixed for most SAGE games.

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