North Koreans.......Taepaedong-2 launched

[Alphabear 11]

no im not kidding. And North Korea has done that in the past and it worked so why is that funny?

[Nachmore 0]

Testing nuclear missiles to feed hungry people. Yup, I gotta put it to you, I don't know how I didn't think of that for my economics essay last semester.

 

At the moment though id say Israel invading Lebanon is more worrying

 

whoa... I need to hear the rationale behind this one (and choose your words carefully).

[TheBlackOut 7]

no im not kidding. And North Korea has done that in the past and it worked so why is that funny?

 

1. Countries STOPPED aidding North Korea once the missiles started appearing.

 

2. Isreal, they have a ****ing reason to do this. You know how long they've been taking ****? I don't know, THOUSANDS.

 

3. But yea, this is the scary part about it. I think Isreal is doing the right thing, but thats the thing, most of the Middle East HATES Isreal so they'll get involved. And if they do, we do, and then something bad happens.

[Mario 0]

well the lebanese started it by taking 2 isreali soldier so they got every right to do what they r doing

[TheBlackOut 7]

well the lebanese started it by taking 2 isreali soldier so they got every right to do what they r doing

 

Actually I believe it wasn't the government or country, it was just some terrorist organization within their country...

 

I think... Not sure.

[Nachmore 0]

The kidnapping was done by the hezbolla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah) which (in short) is a terrorist organisation that has expanded into something larger. The organisation exerts miltary control over the southern regions of Lebanon - including outposts, patrols etc.

 

The democratic government in Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon) doesn't actually control it's own southern reaches, giving way to hezbollah to do as they see fit.

 

The problem is that because of this status quo there is no difference between hezbolla and Lebanon itself, which is sad because it gets the country involved in things that it shouldn't be involved in, causing civilian casualties etc.

 

For more information on the actual operation that is going on there (because it hasn't actually been termed a war yet): Operation Just Reward

[TheBlackOut 7]

The kidnapping was done by the hezbolla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah) which (in short) is a terrorist organisation that has expanded into something larger. The organisation exerts miltary control over the southern regions of Lebanon - including outposts, patrols etc.

 

The democratic government in Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon) doesn't actually control it's own southern reaches, giving way to hezbollah to do as they see fit.

 

The problem is that because of this status quo there is no difference between hezbolla and Lebanon itself, which is sad because it gets the country involved in things that it shouldn't be involved in, causing civilian casualties etc.

 

For more information on the actual operation that is going on there (because it hasn't actually been termed a war yet): Operation Just Reward

 

Sounds like Lebanions and Israel's problem. I think Lebanion and Israel should sit down and combat the terrorist organization together if they want peace.

 

Also, I heard those "Hezbollas" launched some rockets at Israel, and Israel claims it might be Iran. Oh boy...

[Nachmore 0]

It's not that easy. Lebanon doesn't like Israel that much either - and it seems (or so they claim) that they don't have the power to do anything against the hezbolla.

 

The rockets were fired at Haifa, though in a CNN report (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/index.html) the Hezbolla say it wasn't them. If it had been the Iranians though it would have been a larger sized missile and it would have been detected on radar beforehand, so I strongly doubt that it was from Iran.

 

Btw - a good writeup about who the hezbolla are:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/...llah/index.html

[Alphabear 11]

Hezbollah, while still being a terrorist organisation, is partly controlled by both Syria and Iran. Personally I beleive that the attacks initially made by Hezbollah was an attempt to get israel to 'take the bait' and strike as they saw them do recently in Gaza against a different terrorist organisation. This would then provide Iran and Syria with motive for a war with Israel. From there they are any number of ways things could go. If the US gets involved directly not just by suppling Israel, then there is a high chance that other countries may become invold both behind US and and against it.

 

There is the chance that China may also play a role in pressuring the US to not become directly involved thus creeating more tension between the two nations.

 

Thats why I beleive this is more worrying because it can escalate very quickly in so many different ways.

 

 

 

Testing nuclear missiles to feed hungry people. Yup, I gotta put it to you, I don't know how I didn't think of that for my economics essay last semester.

 

Theres two ways this helps.

1

One example of the first way this works is recently the North Koreans had entered talks for it to halt its nuclear weapons program in exchange for aid. So its is used as a bargaining tool.

2

The second way this has helped them in the past is that it has put North Korea back in focus throughout the world. As the worlds focus had started to slowly shift away from NK so to did the aid negotiations. They have a record of taking extreame measures such as this when aid negotiations begin to not go their way so the world takes them more seriously not just like another developing nation.

[BWare 0]

Israel had every reason and right to go into Lebanon. Those animals have been threatening their existence and beating their war drums for years. When Israel has a good reason to actually use their vastly superior military strength to retaliate, I personally love it. I too wish for peace in the Middle East, but we must remember that the only GOOD peace comes from the victory of good. There can also be peace with evil prevailing, remember.... Peace at any cost is the philosophy of a spineless loser.

 

 

 

About North Korea doing these missile tests to somehow get free food to feed their starving people.... wow. Who is feeding you this garbage anyway Alphabear? The people are starving BECAUSE and ONLY because of their evil leadership. Plain and simple. It's artificial starvation. Only a very, very naive person (or liberal, perhaps) would side with North Korea and somehow see this as an act of desperation on their part instead of the saber rattling that it really is.

 

Problem: North Korea is showing signs of aggression and nuclear ambitions by test launching missiles over vulnerable countries.

Liberal Solution: Send them more food!

Sane Solution: Discourage them through diplomacy, embargoes, etc. If that fails, remove their unstable and dangerous leadership by force if it becomes a necessity.

[Alphabear 11]

I never said Israel didnt have the right to go into Lebannon. Im not siding with the anti-war people here. I said it was worring because there anre any number of future possibilites because Iran and syria have proven to be aggressive countries in the past and have now just found themselves with a reason to do what they have wanted to do for a while. And from there therers no saying how far it can escalate and how many other countries could become involved. Thats the worrying thing.

 

 

 

The North Korean leadership is not competent at developing their country like the South koreans are. They know they are a target for the US military (and they should be) if diplomacy fails which is why most of their focus is on the military. But in doing so are neglecting their population because of their inability to successfully manage their nation because of their focus on the militaary which because they have done it for so long is all they know how to do. Then can then use this in peace negtiations for aid which is then used as propaganda against the thought of uprising from within. If the negotiations fail then the weapons can then help to attempt to defend them from invasion. Either way the aims of the government is to remain in power which is the aim of all military dictatorships.

 

Also Bware in future if you disagree with something I say can you focus on explaining why you disagree and refrain from attacking me and my opinions and assigning me an ideological position. It seems every time i get in an argument with you i seem to be accused of being an idiot/naive/ ignorant etc. and then labled a liberal or something similar.

[BWare 0]

I said it was worring because there anre any number of future possibilites because Iran and syria have proven to be aggressive countries in the past and have now just found themselves with a reason to do what they have wanted to do for a while.... Thats the worrying thing.

Really? Well let's see here...

At the moment though id say Israel invading Lebanon is more worrying

Do I read anything about the mounting aggression of Lebanon or countries like Iran and Syria? No, you only mentioned an instance of ISRAELI aggression. Forgive me if I misinterpreted, but seriously- you really could be more clear about the countries that are worrying you.

 

The North Korean leadership is not competent at developing their country like the South koreans are.

This isn't the problem. The problem is that they are solely focused on their military and suppression of their people. They don't care one bit about their well-being, only their complete dominance. To misunderstand this is to misunderstand the entire situation over there. What they do is NEVER to benefit their people.

 

They know they are a target for the US military (and they should be) if diplomacy fails which is why most of their focus is on the military.

This is wrong. They focus on their military BECAUSE and ONLY because they want to throw their weight around. It's insane, I know, but it's what you get when you have a single maniac calling all the shots.

The fact that they're now a potential target of the US now is only a by-product.

 

Also Bware in future if you disagree with something I say can you focus on explaining why you disagree and refrain from attacking me and my opinions and assigning me an ideological position.

When you make a position RIGHT out of the playbook of a certain ideology, it's really hard not to make that tiny leap. But okay, point taken.... :wink:

 

It seems every time i get in an argument with you i seem to be accused of being an idiot/naive/ ignorant etc. and then labled a liberal or something similar.

Well in this case you seem to be very naive about North Korea's intentions, and yes, in some ways you are a bit ignorant on the subject (this sounds much harsher than I mean it). So yes, I have to stand by that. But no, I never called you an idiot here (or ignorant for that matter!).

[Alphabear 11]

Well when i first said israel invading lebannon i thought people would understand the political tension in the region enough to understand to some extent what i was getting at. anyway later in my next post i explained my reasons for those that didnt understand. It worries me because it is a very likely catalyst for a major conflict in the near future.

 

 

 

they want to throw their weight around. It's insane, I know, but it's what you get when you have a single maniac calling all the shots.

Thats not just limited to military dictatorships

 

Well in this case you seem to be very naive about North Korea's intentions, and yes, in some ways you are a bit ignorant on the subject

Ok i respect your opinion here but in my defence my arguments involving north korea are based on what they have done in similar situations in the past not just what the media are telling people to beleive, and despite the way the media are portraying it, it is similar to previous events.

 

When you make a position RIGHT out of the playbook of a certain ideology, it's really hard not to make that tiny leap. But okay, point taken....

Thanks mate. Its just like you dont like getting called a bush fanboy. Sometimes it may appear that way on these forums but in reality it is not true. So no offence here but labling someone a liberal ecause of a few paragraphs they post on a single topic is a bit ignorant.

(sorry i didnt mean to go on about this but it has been an annoying thing for some time now)

 

Fixed a BB code error. ~Beo

[BWare 0]

It worries me because it is a very likely catalyst for a major conflict in the near future.

No question, but that tension has been building for years. Well, really, for thousands of years.

 

Thats not just limited to military dictatorships

Actually, I would argue that psychotic behavior at this level basically IS limited to military dictatorships. Please don't tell me that you're trying to claim that the US is doing the same. Oh please don't try to go down that road......

 

Ok i respect your opinion here but in my defence my arguments involving north korea are based on what they have done in similar situations in the past not just what the media are telling people to beleive, and despite the way the media are portraying it, it is similar to previous events.

Fair enough. I don't doubt your knowledge of their past actions, but I do question your understanding of their motives. If you think that they're really doing these things to garner some attention in order to get more aid for their starving people, then to me this shows a great amount of naivety on your part.

 

So no offence here but labling someone a liberal ecause of a few paragraphs they post on a single topic is a bit ignorant.

Well, not necessarily. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck.... etc :wink:

[Alphabear 11]

Thats not just limited to military dictatorships

Actually' date=' I would argue that psychotic behavior at this level basically IS limited to military dictatorships. Please don't tell me that you're trying to claim that the US is doing the same. Oh please don't try to go down that road......[/quote']

I wasnt going to go down that road specifically but most developed and even many non developed nations have thrown their weight around to put pressure on other nations.

 

Fixed BB coding errors... again. ~Beo

[Mario 0]

i say just let the middle east fight it out

[Nachmore 0]

man... this thread is getting out of hand

 

In the end the Israeli side of things boil down to how much of a right Israel has to defend itself against attacks of these nature. What is a "proportionate response"? I wonder how the countries that define the current response as "disproportionate" would respond if they were being bombed from the other side of their border and a small incursion team crossed the border and kidnapped their soldiers.

 

As for the nuclear missiles program. I have doubts that the reason is humanitarian based as opposed to mainly military from the simple reason that the amount of money spent on those missiles could have made life much easier for a lot of people.

[BWare 0]

Exactly. But now other nations that have been looking for a reason to go to war with Israel that would hold merit in the intenational community have just been given a good reason. Syria has already publically supported Hezbollah fighting against the occupation.

Their Arab friends have been looking for a reason to wipe them off the map for decades. This is really nothing particularly new, though Lebanon's aggression is definitely something to keep an eye on.

 

I wasnt going to go down that road specifically but most developed and even many non developed nations have thrown their weight around to put pressure on other nations.

Good, but again you miss the point here. ONLY military dictatorships throw their weight around for the sake of it. Civilized nations do it for a reason, be it a good one or a bad one.

[Saracen 16]

man... this thread is getting out of hand

 

Indeed, to a degree it is, but it does hold some interesting arguements.

 

For the benefit of all those posting here, Nachmore has all this going on in his country for many years now. But with Hezbollah declaring open war and the nutcases in Iran wanting to stick their noses in, I think every Israeli has something to be worried about.

 

I just hope that if these idiots try anything against the Israeli's the UK (Israel's closest ally) and the USA will respond with brute force against Israel's enemies. Regardless of what happens, Hezbollah, Iran and their allies should be wiped off the face of the earth. Especially when they pose a threat to our allies.

[Mario 0]

nachmore is from Lebanon?

[Nachmore 0]

Nachmore is currently in Perth, Australia and has just finished a couple of years as an officer in the IDF. The staff page still lists him as being in Israel, but that's ok (no need to change that).

 

Let me just make it clear that I am against any civillians being hurt in any type of way and for any reason (that always seems to come up first)... on the other hand Israel can not sit back and take it quietly when it's cities are being bombed, it's borders are violated and it's soldiers and civilians kidnapped and killed.

 

I'll restate what I said before - what would your country do in the same situation? How safe would you feel if you were a citizen in the same situation and your country acted in a different way? Throw in the fact that army service is compulsory so everyone has been through the army, has a son / daughter / cousin / brother / sister etc. in the army and wants to know that everything is being done to protect their lives...