Saracen 16 Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) I mentioned in a C&C 4 thread just yesterday: I have ideas (which I've probably spent too much time on my hands to think about) which could improve the RTS genre in an extremely innovative way never before seen in this gaming industry. However I'm not a programmer, so I can't build a working model... and there's no chance I could give the idea to a developer, because of all the legal ramifications that go along with it... So, my idea is dead in the water! The idea I had was a 4D RTS, with potential repercussions in the 5th Dimension. Sorta like you see in the Red Alert FMVs, but actually as a game... I came up with this idea a few years ago... and told a few Games developers that having a Meta Time Strategy game would be nothing short of pure awesome... I even spent time on a few indie developer forums, spouting the idea and asking someone to just make the damn thing... It seemed to fall on deaf ears. A vision that RTS could be innovatively changed beyond the normal 3 dimensions was never actually looking like a possibility until now. It seems someone did indeed listen, and ran with the idea. It's a game called Achron, and revolves around very similar principles and rules which I outlined in my forum ideas back then. I could sue the pants off them, but it seems the idea was thought of before me, so no chance of that.. But to be honest, I don't care... If this improves RTS for the better, I'd like to think that's reward enough. There's also an Escapist Vid which adds extra explanation to the whole idea, here. Edited August 28, 2009 by Saracen Share this post Link to post
BioBen 3 Posted August 27, 2009 Wow EA, buy this idea for RA4. And it will be fudge win. Share this post Link to post
Luk3us 63 Posted August 27, 2009 Very interesting concept indeed. It sounds rather complex though, though I'd really like to give it a go. Though I can foresee epic amounts of cluster****s with everyone going back in time. Imagine what it would be like if you have 4 players. Sounds fun. I'd like to see what a big time developer like EA or Blizzard could do with something like this. Share this post Link to post
Nmenth 291 Posted August 27, 2009 I could sue the pants off them, but it seems the idea was thought of before me, so no chance of that.. That happens... I've come up with a lot of ideas for RTSs that have since been used. I invented my own concept of how time travel could work too... with no paradoxes... but never thought of using it in a game. Share this post Link to post
Saracen 16 Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) I actually spoke to Adam Isgreen of Jet Set Games back in September 2008 about the idea of creating a 4D RTS with potential emphasis on the 5th dimension... this was his reply: As for adding additional dimensions, Portal shows that no one was really thinking even in 3 dimensions! It did a wonderful job of exploiting the basic dimensions we interact with on a daily basis (plus basic physics), and Braid did a good job in playing with time manipulation in various forms. The question for a game that has infinite use of time and — what would be the 5th — alternate realities? Is how do you get people to relate to it? Especially if you start embracing some paradox (i.e. I do something, then rewind and my “old” copy is still doing that thing while I then am free to do something else) the game gets very complicated very quickly, and people have a hard time keeping track of things like that once you have about 3 or 4 instances of yourself running around! Note that the game doesn’t have to be that complicated, but you get the idea. =) So as you see, he has his doubts on how it would work... But I'll be interested in seeing what he makes about Achron. I'll fire off an e-mail to him and get some judgement, and give you his reply here in the near future. EDIT: I have also sent Adam the link to this 1 hour 11 minute presentation on Achron and the mechanics behind it... If you're looking to understand the game, and how it's not as complex as it sounds, watch this: Edited August 27, 2009 by Saracen Share this post Link to post
Malevolence 6 Posted August 27, 2009 I very much like this idea. This product will be full of win! RTS will be revolutionized yet again! I hope EALA could buy this formula for RA4, and if you have 3V3 players I guess you may need more processing power for the calculations and such. Woo! Share this post Link to post
Saracen 16 Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) OK, here's a further update into the mechanics of this game, and is from the Community forum for Achron. This quote has come from a random member, who at present, I do not know what link he has to Hazardous Software, or whether he just has way too much time on his hands..... So, read away! Ok so here I am listing the current known time-tricks possible in Achron as of 27 August 2009 Sections Offical tricks Confirmed tricks with special circumstances Speculative tricks Legend: Currency: Involves action in the present Timecasting: Involves units travelling in time Retro: Involves action in the past Futuristic: Involves action in the future Timeline: The updating of the timeline is critical to this trick Permanency: The edges of the timeframe are critical to this trick Paradox: The trick involves the appearance of an unstable timeline Shadow: Trick involves elements that do not record as history Official Tricks (the very certain ones) Undoing mistakes Retro See the enemy and keep the scout Retro Currency Use an army and then build it Futuristic Timecasting Currency Postparing defences Retro Chronofrag Timecasting Fighting alongside oneself Retro Timecasting Grandfather paradox Paradox Timecasting Future-sighting Timeline Microbomb Timeline Wave catch-up Timeline Wave dodging Timeline Timecasting Starflight orbiting Timeline Timecasting Shadow Chronobomb bottlenecking Timecasting Currency Player assited chronoporting Timeline Timecasting Paradoxial scouting Paradox Currency Red herring attack Shadow Dead men tell you lies Shadow Currency Futuristic Paradoxical attacking Paradox Shadow Jumping shadows Shadow Timeline Currency Echoless sneaking Timeline Currency Freecanceled future scouting Shadow Currency Universe hopping Paradox Timecasting Timeline Taking the grandfather for a walk Paradox Wavefunction collapse Paradox Currency Retro Contingency general Retro Currency Economic undermining Retro Perfect startgame Retro Optimal mix Retro Me too Retro Undoing mistakes Discovered: Achron demo1 Retro Command the cancelation of an order on the timeline. Any timewave sweeping over the canceled order will propagate the new state forward. See the enemy and keep the scout Discovered: Achron demo 1 Retro Currency Order the scouting party and after it undo it. You get to see enemy positions, get to keep the scouts and use a little chrono energy. Use an army and then build it Discovered: Achron demo 1 Timecasting Futuristic Currency Build units and then chronoport them to a time before they were created. You gain much foothold in the ever so important past but must protect the present for the effect to remain permanent. Postparing defences Discovered: Achron demo 2 Retro Issue commands to the far past to prepare for an incoming assault between that past and the present Chronofrag Discovered: Achron demo 3 Timecasting Chronoport on occupied space. Most easy for an unit to self-chronofrag by standing long idle and then moving backwards in time while remaining stationary. Damages both units. Fighting alongside oneself Discovered: Achron demo 3 Retro Timecasting Chronoport a unit to past into a time where it was naturally. Use both the younger and the older version in this time to gain effective double fire power from the unit. If the younger version is destoryed the olders actions get undone. Grandfather paradox Discovered: Achron demo 4 Paradox Classification: Advanced Make a unit. Chronoport to before being made. Destroy the factory with the unit. The creation of the unit will cause the destruction of the factory. The destruction of the factory will prevent the creation of the unit. The absence of th eunit will save the factory. The factory will cause the creation of the unit. Timewaves will propagate alternate states of the system until a part reaches the immutable timeline and a single state remains. Any configuration where a loopy causation emerges is a grandfather paradox. a Unit being undone in the past can be returned to the timeline if the cause of the undone is removed. If the savior is the units future self, a grandfather paradox forms. Risky and hard to manage, may be the only option left. Future-sighting Discovered: Achron demo 5 Timeline See the future to get information what is going to happen. Also included is using information in the future section of the timeline display. Microbomb Discovered: Achron demo 6 Timeline Pause time and make a lot of commands. Instead of changing little things all over the timeline, dropping one heat moment of action one can throw the opponent off or make the opponent use disproportionally low amount of attention to key moments. In the near-future commands being free enable franctic clickers to drop very large-scale microbombs. Wave catch-up Discovered: Briteclipz asked Achron on Twitter Timeline Order stuff and then fastforward over a timewave. The propagation of the order will be one timewave sooner. Timewave dodging Discovered: 00Davo asked Achron on Twitter, in the context of unlimited resources Timeline Timecasting If there's a timewave coming up, and one of your units will be erased by it, you can chronoport the unit in question over the wave. It'll survive, at least until the next wave arrives (to the departure time). Starflight orbiting Discovered: 00Davo asked Achron on Twitter, in the context of unlimited resources Timeline Timecasting Shadow If chronoporting is sufficiently available, your unit can use Wave dodging to survive indefinitely, weaving back and forth through the timewaves. Keeping such a starflight unit around consumes constant resources and never naturally reaches the immutable timeline. Chronobomb bottlenecking Discovered: Achron website FAQ-section Timecasting Currency Usage of the chronobomb that aims to drop the troop density of the enemy allowing for easier military victories. Player assited chronoporting Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Timeline Timecasting Order and observe through a chronoport in between timewaves at accelrated rate. May allow arriving one timewave sooner. Paradoxial scouting Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Paradox Currency Make a grandfather paradox that ends "unit alive". Use the factory to produce many scouts. Take a look at the enemy base by swarming it. You have your information. When the paradox ends, you will never have made the other scouts. You get your credits back. For the most part you have just ate the cake and saved it (you pay one scout and have to use chronoenergy to regain "interest"-losses). Drawback: You can't have information on grandfather paradoxes that your opponent has that are of the same lenght and of opposite phase. Red herring attack Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Shadow Distract your enemy with attacks that won't have happened, possibly tricking the opponent to use various kinds of resources in vain. Dead men tell you lies Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Shadow Currency Futuristic Use units that have died in the past to commit a red herring attack in the future. Paradoxical attacking Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Paradox Shadow Use the grandfather paradox to mount red herring attacks. Jumping shadows Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Shadow Timeline Just before a timewave passes, order a move deep into the enemy territory. Just after, order a stop. This makes the opponent future-sight a red herring attack. Echolesss sneaking Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Timeline Just before a timewave passes, stop. Just after, continue what you were doing. This prevents the enemy from future-sighting you, giving them less time to react to it propably forcing the use of chrono-energy. A dual to jumping shadows. Freecanceled future scouting Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Shadow Currency A procedure similiar to jumping shadows. A scout (legion) moving in the present from the far end of your base to the frontlines (where the original order of moving to the depths of the enemybase gets interrupted by a stop command) generates a shadow that you can use to gain intelligence. Universe hopping Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Paradox Timecasting Timeline Use wave dodging to mix the states of a grandfather paradox so that they can no longer be divided in to the "factual" and "counterfactual" situations. Chronobombfragging Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" TImecasting Usage of a chronobomb where the main objective is to induce as many chronofrags as possible. Taking the grandfather for a walk Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Paradox Inducing a grandfather paradox by making the pretimetravel unit follow the posttimetravel unit so it can't timetravel. Instead of a split unit, results in a torn unit. Wavefunction collapse Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Paradox Currency Retro Make grandfather paradox and play the timelines equally. As the paradox origin is about to cross over to immutable timeline and thus dissolve, consider which situation you want to keep and make a little nudge to your paradox so that your favorite survives. Contingency general Discovered: Confirmed in Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Retro Currency Operate in small hierachies that all are under one supreme commander. If success doesn't come operating spread with the use of chronoenergy, with the last drop of your chronoenergy, give one command in the past tto the supreme commander to mount a concentraded operation with little enemy chronoenergy to mount a counteroperation. Economic Undermining Retro Discovered: Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Play in the past and strategically target an opponent's resource processors (RPs). The opponent will have less resources throughout the timeline; some buildings, units, and upgrades the player had built won't be able to be created in the new history because the player won't have had enough resources (which may include some very critical units, factories, or upgrades). Normally, good RTS players try to expend their resources as fast as possible, keeping their resources close to zero in order to utilize the resources as soon as possible. However, players who keep their resources too close to zero put themselves in a weak position with respect to economic undermining. Perfect startgame Retro Discovered: Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" When starting a game, stop, slow, and fast forward as appropriate to give precise commands so your builders create resource processors as early as possible on the timeline. For good measure, throw in a red herring rush to an opponent in the mean time if they're close enough on the map. Optimal mix Retro Discovered: Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" First, scout or attack an opponent to see what types of units your opponent is building. Then, go back in time to manufacture units that work best against your opponent's mix of units, and proceed to attack with this new optimal mix. I've won at least a couple games mainly due to this strategy. Me too Retro Discovered: Achron website news "Timemanipulation strategies in Acrhon" Go back to the past, build more units (or just chronoport units to the past), and set them as subordinates in armies before they go out to war. The subordinates follow along with everything that army does without needing to change your strategy or expend more chronoenergy. This strategy can complement optimal mix, and is particularly helpful in one of our current single player levels. Confirmed tricks with special circumstances Chrono-cloning Permanency Timecasting Outrunning prerequisites Futuristic Permanency Timecasting Time farming Timeline Resurrection line Shadow Permanency Timecasting Chrono-cloning Discovered: Achron website paradox page Permanency Timecasting A backwards chronoport in which the arriving side is in the immutable timeline can create two instances of a unit where they can die independently. Achron is by design (being) made to downplay the strategic use of chrono-cloning. Outrunning prerequisites Discovered: Achron website paradox page Futuristic Permanency Timecasting A factory-unit grandfather paradox ending unit alive grants a free unit at the cost of a factory. Some profit can sometimes be made from it. The effect is downplayed by design. Time farming Timeline Stay as long as you can viewing the present to maximize chronoenergy regeneration. When chronoenergy is full spend it as fast as possible to return regenerating sooner. Resurrection line Shadow Permanency Timecasting Use starflight orbiting to hold on to units that you like, then use the edge of the timeframe to "chronoclone" them back to life. The permanent history shows the destruction of the unit and elsewhere the unit stepping out of (heaven)a chronoport, it died but it is alive. With an elaborate chronoport infrastructure you can have many units waiting for their turn to be resurrected. Speculative tricks Weaving clones Timecasting Permanency Stir the future Futuristic Chronophasing Timecasting Weaving clones Timecasting Permanency A long series of tiny backwards chronoports can make the update time of a units personal history much longer than it takes for it to move into the immutable timeline. X number of chronoports in a units history need X number of timewaves to update the history up to date. Undoing the first chronoport will set motion an undoing process that will not complete before the last chronoport becomes immutable. Stir the future Futuristic Order the future troops around with the intent of undoing the commands before they become present. The opponent may future-sight wrongly or fall for Red Herrings. Chronophasing Timecasting When fighting with access to chronoporting resources chronoport important units over the dangerous parts of the opponents firecycle. Allows to distribute damage how you like it. On the other hand the units that are chosen get to operate less. I'm loving this game already! It contains the ideal strategic gameplay I've been looking for since I pondered this idea myself...and has the potential to be freakin' epic! Here's hoping the execution on final release is correct and very well done! Edited August 27, 2009 by Saracen Share this post Link to post
