AI Behaviour

[Kamikave 0]

I was wondering... is there a way to fix or improve some AI behaviour in the game ?

 

For exemple, harvesters tend to harvest tiberium from top left to bodom right of the field, which prevents the field from growing (because all new tiberium will automatically be harvested before reaching its full growth), espacially if it is located in the south east corner of the map. It may be better if she started to harvest from blossom tree and in circle towards the borders. That's for improving.

 

Exemple for fixing : when I have two refinery and 3 harvesters, sometimes, one of them will stop harvesting when reaching the tiberium field, and stay iddle until I give the order to harvest again. It often happens on the covert ops mission "Infiltrated".

 

I have no idea how this works in the game, so if it's a dumb question, don't waste your time on it ^^

Edited June 5, 2011 by Kamikave

[Nyerguds 102]

This may sound odd, but the behaviour you describe (your harvesters stopping) is actually the AI being SMART. To preserve tiberium on the field, harvesters stop harvesting if you run out of silo space. There's no use harvesting if it'll be lost when dumping it anyway.

 

All you need to do to fix this is build some silos, so you always have enough space.

 

 

As for the order of harvesting, yeah, that's a mess. I know that, and Westwood knew it too, so I don't know if it's easy to fix. I have no idea where the tiberium scan function is anyway,

[Ferret 0]

Someday, the value of tiberium will be modifible.

[Chimas 7]

...

As for the order of harvesting, yeah, that's a mess. I know that, and Westwood knew it too, so I don't know if it's easy to fix. I have no idea where the tiberium scan function is anyway,

 

I don't think this is actually a problem of the game.

I can't say it was intentional on the part of westwood, but, like it or not, it's a way of turning the game more difficult. I mean, this way you really have to pay attention to many aspects of strategy which includes the control of production and the growth rate of your war effort. In the 2nd world war, the axis constantly increased their production with a great loss of material and quality due to many reasons. So I believe that happens often in strategy: you do what you can, not what you want (or if you prefer: you can't always get want you want eheheh).

 

Although it doesn't seem to be an interesting feature, I still wouldn't change it in the game.

 

\edit

change it = take it off

Edited June 6, 2011 by Solo

[Kamikave 0]

This may sound odd, but the behaviour you describe (your harvesters stopping) is actually the AI being SMART. To preserve tiberium on the field, harvesters stop harvesting if you run out of silo space. There's no use harvesting if it'll be lost when dumping it anyway.

 

All you need to do to fix this is build some silos, so you always have enough space.

 

Hum... I'm not sure. Not all harvesters stops, just one (I do have more harvesters than refinery, can it be related ? :/). It's true that I have at least 1000$ when it happens, but by then I already have multiple silos built, plus the two refineries.

Problem is, if I don't pay attention, the harvester stays still, even when I don't have any money anymore. That's usually when I realise there is a problem with my incomings lol

 

To my knowledge, the only harvesters that stop when silos are full are in C&C 3. Even in Tiberian Sun, harvesters are wasting tiberium if you don't pay attention to your silos.

 

I don't think this is actually a problem of the game.

I can't say it was intentional on the part of westwood, but, like it or not, it's a way of turning the game more difficult.

It may be true, but I don't think so. On the contrary, tiberium fields are quickly harvested, which means the ennemy AI is quickly out of ressources, when I still have a full tiberium field that I have kept untouched. Because I can order my harvesters where to harvest to let the field grow, the IA can't. On the last missions of the campaign, that is the easiest strategy to win (but maybe not the fastest lol)

Edited June 6, 2011 by Kamikave

[Nyerguds 102]

Hum... I'm not sure. Not all harvesters stops, just one (I do have more harvesters than refinery, can it be related ? :/). It's true that I have at least 1000$ when it happens, but by then I already have multiple silos built, plus the two refineries.

Problem is, if I don't pay attention, the harvester stays still, even when I don't have any money anymore. That's usually when I realise there is a problem with my incomings lol

Think about it... when you're building stuff, but your silo space does fill up, one harvester stops because it can't unload because the silos are full. But since you ARE still building stuff, you already have silo space by the time the other harvesters check it. So the other harvesters keep harvesting, and you don't notice the one that has stopped until you get low on money. At that point, the harvester's been standing there for a while.

 

To my knowledge, the only harvesters that stop when silos are full are in C&C 3. Even in Tiberian Sun, harvesters are wasting tiberium if you don't pay attention to your silos.

It's undocumented, but I've seen it happen many times before, and I'm pretty sure that full silos are what causes it.

[Chimas 7]

On the contrary, tiberium fields are quickly harvested, which means the ennemy AI is quickly out of ressources, when I still have a full tiberium field that I have kept untouched. Because I can order my harvesters where to harvest to let the field grow, the IA can't. On the last missions of the campaign, that is the easiest strategy to win (but maybe not the fastest lol)

 

I agree with you about that. That's why we should compensate this deficiency in the mapmaking process. We must remember also that MOST of the factory missions are set to be beatable. Some fan missions you don't have a single moment of tranquility because the AI is always busy with several specific tasks. One way to lower down your harvesting process is to put some A10 raids on your Tiberium path eventually, in the mapmaking process. The AI should be criticized if you put other resources and that doesn't have effect or disbalance totally making the mission impossible.

 

For example, some missions can get poor if the AI units are set to HUNT, which means the units have a general task rather than a specific one. And in case of the HUNT command, besides general it is usually a "far distant" task. This way the bad mapmaking expose the limits of the AI. BTW, One of our folks here, Pichorra, was working in rebuilding the Nod campaign trying to make harder rebalanced missions.

 

There is one LKO mission (an author) called Hard Invasion, that when you are about to invade a base, a harvester appears from nowhere and all your units "abandon" for a while the invasion to attack the AI harvester and that ends up messing your invasion.

 

I would say that if a mission is designed with several general tasks for the AI, the human player will tend to have advantage.

I just can't say "whatever engine" because I just play CnC95 and I've started to "mapmake" recently.

 

Maybe in the future we might come to have 3 or 4 C&C95.EXE files in the game folder, but I still think the original must stay there among them.

[Kamikave 0]

Think about it... when you're building stuff, but your silo space does fill up, one harvester stops because it can't unload because the silos are full. But since you ARE still building stuff, you already have silo space by the time the other harvesters check it. So the other harvesters keep harvesting, and you don't notice the one that has stopped until you get low on money. At that point, the harvester's been standing there for a while.

 

 

It's undocumented, but I've seen it happen many times before, and I'm pretty sure that full silos are what causes it.

Ok, I'll take your word for it. Like I said, I don't really know how it works ^^

 

 

 

Sorry Solo, I'm not following you... My understanding of C&C stops at the rules.ini file (the Red Alert one lol). Mapmaking and IA task etc... That's just not my area of expertise ^^'

Edited June 7, 2011 by Kamikave

[Nyerguds 102]

The "Hunt" command is just plain broken. It should select either a random target or the closest one, instead of the top one. I'm actually considering looking into that one. Any info on that damned command should help me fix multiplayer behaviour.

[Chimas 7]

Ok, I'll take your word for it. Like I said, I don't really know how it works ^^

 

Sorry Solo, I'm not following you... My understanding of C&C stops at the rules.ini file (the Red Alert one lol). Mapmaking and IA task etc... That's just not my area of expertise ^^'

 

Well, I don't know much either.

Bottomline is: the INI file is a recipe - if you miss something, like salt or vinager, people will tend to suspect of the oven (AI) eheheheh.

Seriously, I'm not the most appropriate person to state if the CnC95 AI is good or bad.

I'm just saying that a developer have a lot of stuff to do before changing the core of the game.

 

About the harvest stop, I'll take a look eventually, because that happened to me playing some missions, specially "Infiltrated"/Cov Ops.

But I never payed attention to what Nyerguds pointed out, now I got curious.

[Kamikave 0]

I see. Well, I too will not say whether the IA is good or bad. As unperfect as she can be, I like it. I just thought that fixing some behaviour might force me to explore new strategies. I tend to always do the same things.

[pichorra 4]

"One of our folks here, Pichorra, was working in rebuilding the Nod campaign trying to make harder rebalanced missions."

 

A Project where is holded due the fact i have no time for do that. Probable i gonna restart it when the Winter vacations starts (Summer for you guys.)

[Nyerguds 102]

Well you'll never have to worry about me changing the single player AI behaviour. Any enhancements I make to single play will be optional.

 

But for multiplayer, it's already plain broken, so yeah, it'd be nice to at least fix that a bit.

[Kamikave 0]

Out of curiosity (again), do have any idea why units are getting stuck when they pass by the left low side of a refinery while harvester is unloading ? It doesn't seem to affect infantry, but all other units forget their orders and turn aroud the refinery until the harvester is done unloading...

I always found that weird.

[Nyerguds 102]

Eh? Never seen that happen.

[pichorra 4]

Eh? Never seen that happen.

 

I did, and it is very annoying. Probably they implemented that for preventing the harvester getting stuck there.

[Nyerguds 102]

So, it's some harvester-only logic getting applied to all units? Annoying...

[Kamikave 0]

Eh? Never seen that happen.

Well, give a tank the order to go through the red square I drew on that picture while the harvester is unloading, ans you'll see, he'll get stuck.

It happens every time, with everything except infantry. I'm surprised you didn't know

Edited July 14, 2011 by Kamikave

[Kamikave 0]

Just reporting an odd behaviour again. In the Nod mission N64 special ops 2, there is a tiberium field on the right, above the GDI base. And this field is ruining the mission ^^'

Once harvesters have depleted the nearest field, their next target is this field. Problem is, the path to access it is too long, or too complicated for the pathfinding to work and the harvesters simply gets stuck against the cliff that is around the tiberium field.

Which means that the IA no longer has any money after maybe 10 minutes, at most.

Could you modify the map to fix that (removing the cliff or the field for exemple), please ?

 

Picture

Edited July 22, 2011 by Kamikave

[Nyerguds 102]

Hmm, yeah, I have noticed that :|

 

I can just make a hole in the wall there. Should fix the issue completely. There are probably enough guard towers around to discourage the player from trying it as back entrance anyway.

[Kamikave 0]

Hmm, yeah, I have noticed that :|

 

I can just make a hole in the wall there. Should fix the issue completely. There are probably enough guard towers around to discourage the player from trying it as back entrance anyway.

I think so too. Thanks

[Kamikave 0]

Ah Ah Ah ! I think I found the bug of the year !

I have no idea what happened, but I can guess why it happened...

In the mission "Infiltrated", my favorite for more than one reason, if you place a tank, or any unit, on the cell where the IA build the Nod canon defense (forgot the name lol), the IA changes its strategy.

Usually, Nod attacks with waves of 2 tanks, 2 firethrowers, and 3 rocket launchers, targetting the northern unit on the map.

But when you prevent the contruction of the canon defense with a tank, the attack pattern becomes chaotic, the IA sends mostly 1 rocket launcher at a time, even the other rocket launcher, the one with napalm (forgot the name too ^^'), targetting my tank and my tank alone (see picture 3), until my defense tower attacks !

Until now, that all I managed to change by torturing the IA.

 

Now I don't know what I did this time, but when I built the advanced comm center, I noticed that I was building a rocket launcher. Except I couldn't canceled it (I didn't start the production either). Then I go see the nod base, and when the construction is complete on my side bar, the nod plane drops a nod rocket launcher !!

Then I built a casern, and then was producing 2 soldiers at the same time o_o (picture 1 & 2) but of course, nothing came out of my casern...

 

It stopped when I destroyed the canon defense (I had to move my tank to repair it, allowing the nod building to "rise")

Another weird thing is on picture 2 & 3, look at the mouse cursor. Units couldn't go there nor through there (they're stuck against it, whatever it is), even after the building bug stopped. But when I started the mission again, no problem...

 

 

Isn't that incredible ?! I couldn't believe my eyes ! I was so surprised I almost forgot to take these screenshots !

That mission is full of surprises, I love it !

Edited July 26, 2011 by Kamikave

[Nyerguds 102]

Bulding obstruction: That's actually the AI being smart. When it tries to (re)build a building but something is in the way, it moves it out of the way. If that something is an enemy, it will send units to it to destroy the obstruction, and since base rebuilding is seen as a vital task, it just sends whatever it has available for it. The mission is simply quite poorly thought out in that aspect, especially since blocking the building there will prevent the AI from rebuilding things you destroy in the enemy base, since it has a Turret ready to place down.

 

Rocket launchers: The AI is simply programmed to build rocket launchers in that mission. In Covert Ops, Nod often uses their full multiplayer tech tree, and that includes BOTH the Rocket Launcher AND the SSM.

 

 

As for the double infantry building, and you seeing the enemy's Rocket Launcher constructing, yes, that's VERY weird. But also, most probably, unreproducible, meaning it's not something I can fix.

[Kamikave 0]

Bulding obstruction: That's actually the AI being smart. When it tries to (re)build a building but something is in the way, it moves it out of the way. If that something is an enemy, it will send units to it to destroy the obstruction, and since base rebuilding is seen as a vital task, it just sends whatever it has available for it.

Rocket launchers: The AI is simply programmed to build rocket launchers in that mission. In Covert Ops, Nod often uses their full multiplayer tech tree, and that includes BOTH the Rocket Launcher AND the SSM.

I figured it was something like that. But that doesn't explain why the IA starts producing SSM when it never does if you don't block the turret constuction. The only other time it does that is when the IA is recovering from a "money starvation". Meaning that if you destroy nod harvesters until the IA has no money left to replace them, then you force it to sell some structures and let it harvest again, the attack strategy changes. Instead of firethrower tanks and rocket launcher, the IA builds SSM, buggy, bike, infantry and even commandos (before, it only builds ingeneers).

"Infiltrated" is the only mission I know of with such pattern. That's why it is my favorite.

 

The mission is simply quite poorly thought out in that aspect, especially since blocking the building there will prevent the AI from rebuilding things you destroy in the enemy base, since it has a Turret ready to place down.

That's not entirely true. Because even if you don't block the construction, the IA never rebuild the nod base, except the power plants. Believe me, I tried everything XD (that's what I meant by "torturing the IA")

So I guess for this mission, the building script (if it is how it works, I don't know ^^') for the nod base only includes turrets and hand of nod (in the player base only) and power plant (in the nod base).

 

As for the double infantry building, and you seeing the enemy's Rocket Launcher constructing, yes, that's VERY weird. But also, most probably, unreproducible, meaning it's not something I can fix.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that you look into it. I know it would be nearly impossible to reproduce, or to find a fix. I was just so amazed that I wanted to share this awesome bug here

Edited July 27, 2011 by Kamikave

[Nyerguds 102]

The only time I've seen something like that happen was when I hex edited a savegame to make me control the AI side. This did give me control over all stuff, but it DIDN'T deactivate the AI, meaning you saw it build stuff even while I did nothing