Map Making with CCMAP: questions and clarifications

[Darkstar387 0]

Hello everybody.

I've been making custom missions for Tiberian Dawn for some time now, my love for the game renewed by Nyerguds amazing work with the unofficial patch. While I haven't ever uploaded any of the 28 maps I've created and tested, I can't remember how many times I've referenced this forum for answers and fixes for issues I've had.

 

Anyway, let me get down to it: I have some questions regarding things I've noticed while scripting certain events in game and I was hoping I could get some clarification. I understand most of you here are probably experts by now, and I was hoping I could tap into some of the brilliance you all so generously bring to this forum.

 

1.) When triggering AI production using the "Time" event, I've noticed that I have to include a player for the trigger to work properly. I've seen Nyerguds state on multiple occasions that a specific house is not needed in the production trigger, but I've tested it and my findings seem to point to the contrary. Has anybody else encountered this? Am I perhaps using an unpatched version of the game? (1.06c r3)

 

[Triggers]

PROD=Time,Production,1,BadGuy,None,10 (WORKS)

PROD=Time,Production,1,None,None,10 (DOESN'T WORK)

2.) On some occasions, I've noticed units from specific teams not following their way points. this is especially prevalent in teams being reinforced via helicopter. The way points are clearly defined in the .ini file, I've tried it with the team's "X Key" option toggled on and off. There doesn't seem to be a difference. Sometimes the units will move to the corner of the map, sometimes they will just sit outside their production facilities... it seems as though this happens at random. I always put the way points on solid, clear ground (never on top of an overlay). I could provide the files for 2 missions scripts where this issue persists if anyone would like.

3.) What is the maximum number of diverse units sustainable in one teamtype? I never go beyond 4 different units, or 15 units total.

4.) Has anyone gotten the "Attack Civilian" trigger to work correctly? I use it but the AI doesn't attack units belonging to the neutral faction, they just sit there. Alliances were checked and the 2 houses were verified to be enemies.

[TeamTypes]

QRF1=BadGuy,1,0,0,0,0,15,0,0,0,4,E1:3,E4:2,BIKE:2,LTNK:2,3,Move:5,Move:6,Attack Civilian:90,0,0

I'd appreciate any help I can get. Thank you!

Edited February 27, 2015 by Darkstar387

[Darkstar387 0]

So I think I might have identified a possible cause to issue #2. In once instance I had given an AI attack force the "Attack Base" command, but because the AI scans for targets starting at the top left corner, it was sending its units to attack a civilian structure belonging to a house it was unaligned with at the top of the map. I've noticed that hostiles do not attack buildings that aren't yet revealed by the player. Therefore, my hypothesis is they just sat and waited for the player to unveil their target through the shroud of war. However this doesn't explain why they skipped 2 "Move" commands.I added the civilians to the AI's list of allies and it seemed to fix the problem.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Darkstar387

[Nyerguds 96]

1.) When triggering AI production using the "Time" event, I've noticed that I have to include a player for the trigger to work properly. I've seen Nyerguds state on multiple occasions that a specific house is not needed in the production trigger, but I've tested it and my findings seem to point to the contrary. Has anybody else encountered this? Am I perhaps using an unpatched version of the game? (1.06c r3)

You misunderstand. The trigger effect has no owner, in the sense that "Production" enables production for all AI sides. In general, the trigger's House setting is never linked to the effect (except in a few bizarre cases where it's probably a bug), but is purely related to the cause. The owner is not an "owner", but the only house that is allowed to cause the action specified to activate the trigger. And, the "Time" trigger needing a house for triggering it is a known oddity, yes.

2.) On some occasions, I've noticed units from specific teams not following their way points. this is especially prevalent in teams being reinforced via helicopter. The way points are clearly defined in the .ini file, I've tried it with the team's "X Key" option toggled on and off. There doesn't seem to be a difference. Sometimes the units will move to the corner of the map, sometimes they will just sit outside their production facilities... it seems as though this happens at random. I always put the way points on solid, clear ground (never on top of an overlay). I could provide the files for 2 missions scripts where this issue persists if anyone would like.

I don't think paths for unloaded units work. See the official missions for more examples on that. There are some Covert Ops (like Blackout) that have chinooks unloading engies that then attack your base. I suggest you look at those. But I think it's no path but rather a single "Attack Base" command.

3.) What is the maximum number of diverse units sustainable in one teamtype? I never go beyond 4 different units, or 15 units total.

No clue, really. The limit is basically "whatever doesn't get stuck somewhere"

4.) Has anyone gotten the "Attack Civilian" trigger to work correctly? I use it but the AI doesn't attack units belonging to the neutral faction, they just sit there. Alliances were checked and the 2 houses were verified to be enemies.

Never tried it, sorry.

[Darkstar387 0]

I understand what your saying regarding trigger actions, I was just a little confused about the relationship between the "Time" trigger and the "Production" event. I didn't realize its unique nature was common knowledge Thanks for your input!

 

Regarding issue 2! Looking back at my missions scripts I did notice a larger success rate when unloaded units had one simple command. I do however have problems with factory-built units skipping waypoints as well, sometimes its because the the "X Button" function is enabled and the group is too large to register as "on top off" the waypoint, but even with it off I see groups of 6-8 units skipping waypoints and traveling to either the norther-western most corner, or the unload position. I can provide mission files if anybody wants so you can see for yourselves.

 

Now you probably have all encountered this already but I noticed that teams scheduled to be built via a looping time trigger are back-logged if the production trigger has yet to activate. So when the production trigger DOES activate, the enemy builds all queued teams and sends them at once. As you can imagine, this could be problematic for a human player just starting to build their base. Anybody have any work-arounds other than increasing the time intervals?

Edited March 19, 2015 by Darkstar387

[Nyerguds 96]

I understand what your saying regarding trigger actions, I was just a little confused about the relationship between the "Time" trigger and the "Production" event. I didn't realize its unique nature was common knowledge Thanks for your input!

There's no specific relationship... as I said, the House in the trigger is related to the cause, and the effect is house-independent. So the only oddity here is that the "time" triggers require a House.

I do however have problems with factory-built units skipping waypoints as well, sometimes its because the the "X Button" function is enabled and the group is too large to register as "on top off" the waypoint, but even with it off I see groups of 6-8 units skipping waypoints and traveling to either the norther-western most corner, or the unload position. I can provide mission files if anybody wants so you can see for yourselves.

Fairly sure you must be doing SOMETHING wrong there. Post some examples and I might figure it out.

Now you probably have all encountered this already but I noticed that teams scheduled to be built via a looping time trigger are back-logged if the production trigger has yet to activate. So when the production trigger DOES activate, the enemy builds all queued teams and sends them at once. As you can imagine, this could be problematic for a human player just starting to build their base. Anybody have any work-arounds other than increasing the time intervals?

A few pointers:

-"Create Team" triggers do NOT cause units to get built. What causes production is the little number on teamtypes saying "keep X times this team in reserve."

-"Create Team" triggers do NOT use newly built units exclusively. They will take any unit on the map that's recruitable, meaning, any unit not already executing a specific command. Basically any unit on "Guard" will qualify.

-Nothing will be produced by AIs at all until Production is activated, but it can create and send out teams just fine.

 

Now, I'm basically wondering why on earth you would want the AI to create and send teams before you allow it to create stuff. Is there any specific purpose to you delaying the Production trigger?

 

Anyway, there are a few ways around it:

-With that information, you should be able to deduce that simply putting enough units in the base from the start will allow the AI to create its teams without needing to produce them

-If you use Autocreate instead of timed Create Team triggers, the AI will automatically produce and send out teams from those in your Teamtypes list that have Autocreate enabled.

-Note that the official missions rarely use looped Create Team triggers. They usually have a list of specific non-looped timed attacks, followed by Autocreate.

[Darkstar387 0]

Fairly sure you must be doing SOMETHING wrong there. Post some examples and I might figure it out.

 

I agree, something is amiss in my script. Here are the sections relevant to my issue:

[TeamTypes]

MCV1=GoodGuy,0,0,0,0,0,7,0,0,0,2,MCV:1,MTNK:1,1,Move:7,0,0
QRF1=BadGuy,1,0,0,0,0,15,0,0,0,4,E1:3,E4:2,BIKE:2,LTNK:2,3,Move:5,Move:6,Attack Base:90,0,0
QRF2=BadGuy,0,0,0,0,0,15,0,0,0,2,STNK:3,BGGY:3,1,Attack Base:90,0,0
QRF3=BadGuy,0,0,0,0,0,15,0,0,0,3,E5:3,MLRS:2,LTNK:1,2,Move:8,Attack Base:90,0,0


[Triggers]
SEND=House Discov.,Reinforce.,0,BadGuy,MCV1,0
PROD=# Units Dstr.,Production,5,BadGuy,None,0
ATK1=Time,Create Team,80,BadGuy,QRF1,1
ATK2=Time,Create Team,100,BadGuy,QRF2,1
ATK3=Time,Create Team,125,BadGuy,QRF3,1
XXXX=# Bldgs Dstr.,Nuclear Missile,8,BadGuy,None,0
NUKE=Destroyed,Dstry Trig 'XXXX',0,GoodGuy,None,0
WINS=All Destr.,Win,0,BadGuy,None,0
LOSE=All Destr.,Lose,0,GoodGuy,None,0


[CellTriggers]


[Waypoints]
27=-1
26=3440
25=-1
24=-1
23=-1
22=-1
21=-1
20=-1
19=-1
18=-1
17=-1
16=-1
15=-1
14=-1
13=-1
12=-1
11=-1
10=-1
9=-1
8=2351
7=3890
6=2216
5=1322
4=2378
3=-1
2=-1
1=-1
0=-1

Now, I'm basically wondering why on earth you would want the AI to create and send teams before you allow it to create stuff. Is there any specific purpose to you delaying the Production trigger?

 

I'm aware of this, I believe you misunderstood me. My intent is not for the AI to deploy teams before the production trigger, my issue is that the AI builds 4 or 5 duplicates of a team simultaneously once once production is initiated despite the maximum number allowed being set to 0. I have also ensured that there are no units on the map for the AI to recruit for the team type.

Allow me to explain by example:

The AI is scripted to build a team of tanks every 90 time units using a looping "CreateTeam" trigger. However, the production isn't triggered until 270 time units have passed (this is by design). Once production is initiated, I believe the AI is building 3 teams at once to make up for the teams already queued. I'm basically attempting to have the AI build a convoy of tanks at 90 time unit intervals, but only after a certain amount of time has already passed. Is this feasible?

 

For the record, I haven't had much luck with the Autocreate trigger. I can't seem to get the hang of it.

[Nyerguds 96]

The AI is scripted to build a team of tanks every 90 time units using a looping "CreateTeam" trigger. However, the production isn't triggered until 270 time units have passed (this is by design). Once production is initiated, I believe the AI is building 3 teams at once to make up for the teams already queued. I'm basically attempting to have the AI build a convoy of tanks at 90 time unit intervals, but only after a certain amount of time has already passed. Is this feasible?

I... honestly don't think so. The official missions usually solve this by only making it create teams after a set amount of time which the mission designers deemed sufficient for the player to achieve any preliminary objectives. As I said, they rarely seem to work with looped Create Team triggers.

 

I do suggest you check out the official missions; they show very clearly how these systems are supposed to be used.

 

By the way, I'm fairly sure the number behind the "15" should be "1" for produced teams... because that's the number that basically says how many of that team should be kept in reserve. It is one of the factors that causes the AI to actually build the units.

 

For the record, I haven't had much luck with the Autocreate trigger. I can't seem to get the hang of it.

Did you actually enable Autocreate on any of the teams? It's the number two before the "15".

 

The full explanation of these things can be found in this document:

http://nyerguds.arsaneus-design.com/cncstuff/cctxt/ccmanual.txt

[Darkstar387 0]

Yes, but the problem is that whenever I script the AI to use the autocreate trigger to create a team, they build EVERY team with autocreate enabled, not just one. for example, If I have 3 separate teams in the teamtype list all set to autocreate=1, and an autocreate trigger every 90 time units, the AI will build all three teams as opposed to randomly selecting one.

[Nyerguds 96]

"Autocreate" is not like "create team". It is like "Production". Once it's activated, it keeps producing teams at a steady rate. It's not affected by looping. It's literally an autopilot for your Create Team stuff, and once it's on autopilot, it remains that way.

 

Really, just open up the original campaign missions. They'll show you how all that stuff works.

[Chimas 7]

Darkstar387,

Can I have a look in your current state of any mission files you can send? (that have all these problems)

If you prefer, chimas at via-rs.net ...

Edited August 30, 2015 by Chimas

[MattAttack 2]

Wow.. I thought I was the only one.... I have made tons of c&c missions, and in fact I've started making tutorial videos in regards to this. (although apparently this site won't allow me to place links here, just search mattattackcnc95 on youtube.) In regards to some of your questions:

 

1)Time does require a specific trigger owner in relation to the production trigger. Strange though, as in the original campaign missions, the "player enters" trigger must have the house set to who enters the celltrigger/structure. By default, if Badguy is the player who enters, goodguy's production starts and vice versa. A lot lately, I've simply been using the "discovered" trigger to activate enemy production which must (I think) have the house set to WHOS production is being triggered.

 

2)Not too sure, but enemy troops moving to the far right corner indicates an incorrect, unassigned waypoint in their orders.

 

3)Each team seems to react differently, but as a general rule, no more than 5 infantry in a team or 5 vehicles. Combinations of inf. and units necessitates further testing. I think I actually got 8 grenadiers in a team to successfully follow orders, but they'd still get stuck and twitchy once in a while.

 

4)Yes! However, a teams U1# (the one that's usually set to 7 or 15 in campaign missions) must be 20 or higher otherwise they won't follow through on their orders if a third party (house) is attacked.

 

I've actually started replacing all 50 of the original campaign missions and so far, I've finished Nod&GDI 1-4 (13 missions) Again I for some reason can't paste the link here but just go to cnc-comm.com and they're under the singleplayer maps section called "tiberian dawn for pros"

 

I'm just someone else shares an interest in this subject. Play my missions, dissect them, and hit me up!

[Darkstar387 0]

In regards to question 3, I've actually gotten larger groups of infantry to work in tandem with vehicles. I've been able to get teams of 3 vehicles and 8+ infantry to follow waypoints as a linked group. The only thing you have to be mindful of is how close each unit can get to the waypoint's cell. It seems that a waypoint's "detection radius" may be a solid 3x3 cell area. So a unit doesn't necessarily have to cross the exact cell holding the waypoint in order to continue on to the next, they just have to be near it. That being said, if you have a linked team type of more than 9 vehicles and order them to move to a waypoint, the 10th+ vehicles will never be able to register as having "crossed" the waypoint because the first 9 vehicles have taken up too much space and effectively blocked other team members from reaching it. This issue can be resolved by unlinking teams.

In regards to number 4, I'm interested to hear that other numbers can be used for UI#. I thought the only acceptable values were 7 and 15. I'll have to play around with this.

[MattAttack 2]

I absolutely agree with your assesment of teamtype size and how they "touch" waypoints. I Prefer using teams of 5 or less so they travel smoothly across the map and don't get stuck or twitchy... ever. I have found solutions, though. In GDI mission 3 of my campaign, for example, I get like 15 or so inf. to "appear" to be in 1 team, but in reality they were 4 or 5 teams of 3-4 infantry that all got initiated at the same time and the units were pre-built.

 

As far as the U1 goes, I've now discovered that U1 of 20+ will also NOT react when you attack their base or their harvester. It is also sort of a "recruiting priority" system whereas units with low U1s will be recruited into teams with higher U1s, but not visa-versa. Hopefully soon, I will be able to make another tutorial video in regards what I've found.

[Darkstar387 0]

I'd love to see it. The U1 is still a great big mystery for me specifically because of the "recruitment" function you mentioned. I noticed that when Westwood built their campaign missions, they often put pre-built units inside the AI base specifically for the AI to use in team types, a design decision I've often questioned.

 

On an unrelated note, I;m having some difficulty getting the AUTOCREATE action to work in conjunction with the BUILT IT trigger. I can get Autocreate to work on a timed trigger, but it doesn't seem to like the Built It trigger. The relevant script is below:

 

[Teamtypes]

AUT1=badguy,0,0,0,1,0,22,1,0,0,2,e1:4,e3:2,5,move:9,move:10,move:5,move:12,attack base:90,0,0

AUT2=badguy,0,0,0,1,0,22,1,0,0,2,LTNK:2,BGGY:1,5,move:9,move:10,move:5,move:12,attack base:90,0,0

AUT3=badguy,0,0,0,1,0,22,1,0,0,2,e4:3,e6:2,5,move:3,move:4,move:5,move:12,attack base:90,0,0

[Triggers]

AUTO=built it,autocreate,6,goodguy,none,0

I'm wondering if Autocreate is a special case that needs to be linked specifically to the faction doing the building. Right now the AI is supposed to begin the autocreate process after the player (goodguy) has built a weapons factory. But in game, nothing happens. I've gotten the Built It trigger and the Autocreate function to work properly in other missions, but this instance is giving me a problem. Any thoughts?

Edited March 8, 2016 by Darkstar387