The Star-Spangled Banner

[BWare 0]

Ready to get pissed off?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5369145

How obscene is that?

 

 

Oh! And let's not forget what's going on on May 1... ie, MAY DAY :shock: (if you don't get the relevance of May 1, look it up)

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20060428/...GRATION-DC.html

This has gotten completely out of hand.

[(ha) crazy 0]

agreed but not much we can do now eh?

[Guest MadBadger]

now who was bitching about free-speach in another thread......

[BWare 0]

Badger, don't be a moron. Try... try with all your might.

 

Taking the Star Spangled Banner and singing it in SPANISH, while changing the words and perverting the message, pisses me off. Am I saying that they should be STOPPED? Well, maybe, but that's not what I'm arguing here. This issue transcends the question of free speech- we're not discussing whether they have the RIGHT to sing this horrible, offensive nonsense. I'm talking about whether it's a decent or acceptable thing to do. See the difference? Man, I swear.... Get with the program here dude. You're missing the point entirely.

 

Free speech does NOT mean freedom from criticism or reaction. Geez, I swear I feel like I'm explaining this to a 6 year old :roll:

 

 

 

Also, people who aren't United States citizens are NOT entitled to our freedoms and rights. Just a side note.

[Shocker 0]

Also, people who aren't United States citizens are NOT entitled to our freedoms and rights. Just a side note.

The federal courts have held that illegal aliens residing in the United States have: Fourth Amendment rights (INS v. Lopez-Mendoza); Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights (Wong Wing v. United States); heck, even the right to a free public education (Plyler vs. Doe) -- to name but a few of the relevant cases. The courts have also consistently upheld the right of illegal aliens to due process and equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment.

 

Just a side note.

[TheBlackOut 7]

I want them out, if they ain't gonna pay taxes, pfft, out with yah.

 

(Kind of funny, the boycotts really did nothing, our economy actually went up still :lol: )

[BWare 0]

The federal courts have held that illegal aliens residing in the United States have: Fourth Amendment rights (INS v. Lopez-Mendoza); Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights (Wong Wing v. United States); heck, even the right to a free public education (Plyler vs. Doe) -- to name but a few of the relevant cases. The courts have also consistently upheld the right of illegal aliens to due process and equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment.

 

Just a side note.

Oh, how cute of you. Do you not think I'm aware of that judicial activism going on? The point is that they are NOT American citizens and have no right to be here. They are criminals.

[Shocker 0]

Oh, how cute of you. Do you not think I'm aware of that judicial activism going on?

Did you bother to actually, y'know, read the cases before slamming them as pieces of judicial activism? Or did you simply have the usual knee-jerk reaction of conservatives when they are faced with judicial decisions that they disagree with?

 

The reasoning the judges used is generally quite sound. Take part of the Fourteenth Amendment, for example:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

Notice how the amendment explicitly prohibits the states from abrogating the "privileges and immunities" of citizens, and then goes on to guard any person's right to life, liberty, due process, equal protection etc etc.

 

If we were to believe your statement that "people who aren't United States citizens are NOT entitled to our freedoms and rights," why would the Amendment provide that "citizens" are entitled to special privileges, but that "all people [any person]" are entitled to due process and equal protection?

 

The answer is basically that all people -- regardless of their immigration status -- are endowed with certain unalienable rights (sound familiar?) that simply cannot be trampled on. No sane person is suggesting for one minute that illegal aliens should have all the rights of U.S. citizens. But to argue that they have no rights *at all* under the Constitution is just...wrong.

 

The point is that they are NOT American citizens and have no right to be here. They are criminals.

I'm not denying it for one minute. As a legal emigrant to New Zealand, I have no fondness for people who try to bypass the proper immigration process. But in most democracies -- my country, your country, Canada, Australia etc -- even criminals have rights.

[BWare 0]

You are absolutely right Shocker. That was a definitely a knee jerk response from me. I am familiar witht the 14th amendment and its implications, but I was trying to stress the difference between the rights of legals and the rights of illegals. I apparently went too far in doing so :wink:

[Shocker 0]

Understood!

[BWare 0]

No no... you're right when you're right, and I'm one to admit it when I'm wrong :wink:

 

I was speaking very passionately earlier, because this is a VERY real thing going on in the States. Our country is essentially being invaded, and our politicians are playing footsy with them while their constituents (ie me and my family) are completely helpless. So yeah, I see activism in judges who want to soften the laws against illegals, even if it's not entirely fair or intellectually honest of me to do so. So thank you for straightening me out on those cases in particular.

[Shocker 0]

I was speaking very passionately earlier, because this is a VERY real thing going on in the States. Our country is essentially being invaded, and our politicians are playing footsy with them while their constituents (ie me and my family) are completely helpless. So yeah, I see activism in judges who want to soften the laws against illegals, even if it's not entirely fair or intellectually honest of me to do so. So thank you for straightening me out on those cases in particular.

I understand where you're coming from. Heck, New Zealand is thousands of kilometres away from any other country of note, and yet illegal immigrants still manage to find their way here. I can only imagine the numbers that would flow through your country's huge land borders, and the strain they put on your health, transport, law enforcement and education systems. I'm sure Congress will work very hard to not address the problem :/

 

In regards to the perception that the judicial branch is adopting a soft approach on illegals, I would only point out that many of the cases that established these rights are in fact quite old. Wong Wing v U.S., for example, was decided in 1896!

[Cygnus X-1 12]

Shocker, you are wrong.

 

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

If you are not a citizen, then you do not fall under state juridiction for protection.

 

BWare, Im surprised you missed that. And the National Anthem was written in ENGLISH, and its needs to be sung in ENGLISH. If you want to sing a nation anthem in spanish, Spain, Mexico, and a million other countries have their anthems in spanish.

[BWare 0]

Actually, you're misreading that a bit there cygnus... "person within its jurisdiction" is in fact referring to NON citizens within the US, a translation that is clearly backed by the supreme court. When I see this I think of the crazy Brits that visit here on vacation :wink:, not the lawbreaking scum pouring over our borders. But hey, it is the law :?

 

But yes, the singing of the National Anthem in spanish is ABSOLUTELY appalling.

[Shocker 0]

Shocker, you are wrong.

 

If you are not a citizen, then you do not fall under state juridiction for protection.

No. You can search the web for Fourteenth Amendment jurisprudence on the topic if you wish--the Supreme Court judges explain their reasoning far more eloquently than I ever could.

 

"person within its jurisdiction" is in fact referring to NON citizens within the US, a translation that is clearly backed by the supreme court.

To be precise - it's referring to all people, regardless of their citizenship status

[Cygnus X-1 12]

Scuse me, i stand corrected :oops: 8)

 

I still think that our welfare laws need to be adjusted. Giving out free everything to illegals is appaling in my eyes, as if we dont have enough problems already.

[Doctor Destiny 41]

Giving out free everything to illegals is appaling in my eyes,

zomg RACIST! [/ACLU nonsense]

 

I agree with you 100%.

[Cygnus X-1 12]

Seriously, theres a reason why we have forgeign work grants and emmigration offices and all that. There is a way to get into the country legally, and if you think your too high and mighty for it, you can turn around and either walk out, or feel the steel of by boot

 

Yes, I am ever increasingly pissed at the state I find our nation in.

[Doctor Destiny 41]

It's not that they're 'too good'... I really think it's that don't know about it or don't believe that they'll 'qualify.' Maybe they just want work... Who the **** knows?

[Cygnus X-1 12]

They could ask questions. The border guards arent all that evil. Besides, why do they think we have fencing a guards in the firstplace? to look pretty?

[GeneralZ 0]

deport, deport, deport, deport, deport

 

they shoulda arrested any illegal immigrants who hit the streets in protests. or at least fire them from their jobs. i heard that in some places, illegal immigrant strikers were fired from their jobs

 

deport, deport, deport, deport, deport

 

they dont pay taxes, but their use our serives and bog its down. the case when that girl from mexico crossed the US border to get some organ transplant infuriated me. Heres this illegal immigrant (they didnt get any visa, etc.) who took an organ transplant, when there are many other US citizens waiting for one. they use our schools, hospitals and civic services but dont contribue except "taking the jobs no1 wants" well, there are plenty of homeless people, give them the jobs; it'll keep them off the streets and it would actually help them

 

deport, deport, deport, deport, deport

[Cygnus X-1 12]

Valid points, except that we dont exactly have the resources to deport 12 million illegals.

[BWare 0]

Amen GeneralZ, amen. Cygnus, the fact that we don't have the resources (frankly I don't buy this) doesn't change the fact that it's the right thing to do. We need to SEAL OFF THE BORDER and stop the hemmoraging, and then work on hunting down and shipping out every single one of the 12 million. Actually, 12 million is a pretty conservative estimate. There are likely many more than even that.... :shock:

[Luk3us 63]

I thought there was some big fancy wall being constructed along the US and Mexico border?

[BWare 0]

Nope.