Basic and Applied Research in focus

[Chimas 7]

Hi,
I'm discussing how REPAIRS can have a more important role in strategy, concerning RTS games.
I'm providing some links, if you wanna read about other games (i.e. Grey Goo and Homeworld).

1 - https://www.greybox.com/greygoo/en/forum/topic/2698/?page=1#post-23452

2 - http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/basic-and-applied-research/518027

Basically, bringing a number of units to repair so you can enable performance upgrades in your units. And by doing so, making the units less disposable.

This is the base for this argment:
- I was watching a documentary about the soviet attack helicopter MI24 or 27(don't remember the code) and they were reporting the improvements in the aircraft obtained from the battle field, specifically the conflict in Afghanistan in the 80s. The most visible changes was the tuning (accuracy) of the main gun and the move of the rear rotor from one side to the other to "clear off" vibrations. All that came from feedbacks of the battle field, because many helicopters used to be recovered over night by engineers to be ready for combat by dawn. It's a 1h B&W documentary in YouTube.

Some will find it useless while others might like it. But, Conditioning features can make a player rethinks strategy in-game. It's a way to put optimization in place of maximization of a given skill.If you wanna discuss, comment below.

[Nmenth 290]

Units are too disposable in most RTSs these days, in my opinion. The genre has evolved into nearly 100% unit spam, and unit caps do nothing to prevent this issue.

 

Limiting resources can make preserving your units a higher priority, but it also might make the game annoying as a side effect.

 

I don't know what the right answer is, but in one of the RTSs that I am designing, I am attempting to make unit spam less desirable by adding human resources. These are not the stupid variable unit cap type resource some games use, it is more or less an additional "currency" that is earned and spent. Available recruits are earned by performing well in a battle as interpreted by the civilian population, so low efficiency unit spam will result in too many losses and seriously damage your reputation with the public, thus reducing your human income. This makes preserving your units far more important, so higher efficiency tactics and retreating to repair in a losing conflict become more valuable than merely overwhelming the enemy with superior numbers.

 

I'll leave it at that, as I think the more I say, the further I will veer off from your intended purpose of this topic.

[Ravendark 46]

At the risk of maybe diverting abit from the repair topic aswell.

I am mostly active in the modding part of the forum, and a few related issues have come up there:

 

Modding the Tiberium Wars era of c&c i am trying to add a few interesting functions or effects to the game. Involving unit survivability, repairing and unit viability towards tthe endgame.

 

Repairing : I am planning on reintroducing a repairbay instead of repair drones for my gdi'sh side. A medic(more like a engineer+medic combo) for its infantry. My GDI side can bring forth some of the most powerfull units compared to the othersides, but upgrades of existing units involve returning to the repair/service depot. Altho hey get really powerfull at veterancy ranks, i am planning of removing autohealing effects at max veterancy and dependancy on bringing medics and reutrning to base for repairs. alot of this basicly comes because the overall theme and feel of my mod(when its done and viable for release) is a near future scenario...with plausable sci fi feel instead of a pure scifi feel. So more plausible means of healing and repair.

 

Unit and tech updates and revisions: A sub faction in my mod will be a US based faction with a cross feeling of Zero Hour and TW tailored to my mods theme. In the scenario the US is past its golden age of military spending and was forced to rethink their evolving weapons tech and army needs. An example is that they will not fly on raptors or f35's like most games, but due that those porjects whent overbudget with little to show for what was really expected... contracts have been terminated and now northrop gruman is developing a black widow inspired yf-22 vtol like version for the us(so basicly the y got the old designs out of the closet and worked from there). They will use a few boeing/LM drones tho. Alot of the exiting vehicles have had overhauls and updates, but for the most part have not been totaly redesigned, because of the current goverment policies and budgets.

 

All by all i want infantry to be fast(to deploy and train), squishy in the open, but a pain when they can take cover, garrison or ambush. Vehicles will be powerfull but need a dedicated repair unit or return to the service depot to heal. Infantry will bring a medic (altho i am thinking self heal ugrade for my nod'sih faction..either in the form of futuristic nanites but i probably will go more along the lines of advanced battlefield medical training....sounds more plausible...wich will function as a weak(slightly stackable aoe heal))

 

A short and maybe slightly diverted story short: i would agree that in todays rts unit spam has become a acceptable sin and the value of a unit is mostly based on its economic cost. Repair, medical units can be priceless in the right situation. And a feeling of a evolving unit is more to my interest aswell. A fast tank who's early task is scouting and harrasment that gets upgraded becomes a MBT that can hold a line or bring it down.

 

My 2 cents tiberium credits atleast.

[Chimas 7]

I thought of making the unit docks to a repair structure, so you substitute the monitoring of a stat by a game action - you have to send the unit back and there is a risk envolved in retreating.

As I said in other forums, in HW this is simple to do, almost automatic, just have to press D. In others you might have to select and conduct to base, which might not be worthy.

 

So, I imagine like a special command. For example, some games, if you double-click a unit, it will select all of the same unit type on screen. A game developer can bind a command that select only the wounded on the screen, send to base, repair and put it back around the base ready to fight.

 

@Ravendark: I wouldn't say a tank scout would become a MBT, but it could become a dieharder facing some middle game units (like a helicopter) while still remaining vulnerable to a Heavy tank or the upgraded helicopter itself, depending on what's goin on in the battlefiled. I mean, the unit will perfect what it is already good at (improvement). For a change in size, that would demand "basic" research to produce a new chassis/platform. One thing I thought about that matter is rather than having a new type of factory or research modules, you'd get access to prototypes, i.e. new units with bad stats. You have cap on them and instead of just waiting a time for that tech, you keep it around the factory so you can play with it and change items one by one, until you get the operational unit. Something like, you get/install a new canon in 30s, you get a new turret in another 30s and so on. When the unit is ready, the limit increases so you can build squadrons of those units. Just imagining the mechanics ...

[Ravendark 46]

Iirc supreme commander (2?) had a option to rush experimentals, they would come out of the factory with reduced health....like mentioned above a experimental unit that comes out of the factory to early wont have its weapon working a 100% or not being able to use a ability or 2nd weapon inthill it returns for upgrades/revisions..sound interesting.

[Traymen 6]

In so called "grand strategies" like Victoria, or Hearts of Iron you have several resources such as people, oil, steel, energy, supplies and money. Those resources are used in three sliders: produce, upgrade and replace. New units costs more than upgraded ones (you may upgrade simple tank from I WW way up to newest tank possible of Cold War - but it takes some time), After each battle you have to replenish human losses using reservists, which are limited and their growth is very slow. Also selecting the proper "land strategy" is crucial to gain advantage upon enemy. USSR has nearly unlimited number of reservist, which allows them to be more carefree with "Human Wave" strategy, while Germans or French have to obtain highest possible morale and army organization to win the war.

 

In typical strategy it won't function, and game mechanic have to be simplified. In Dawn of War or Company of Heroes you have such things as specific unit upgrades (upgrades don't have to be applied on all units) and soldiers treatment at hospital. It is very automated - you select a group of soldiers to "heal" and they will run back to nearest hospital for treatment. Unit spam is prevented, because tanks are very vulnerable, and w/o proper support they will be obliterated by good anti-tank soldiers and artillery. Also Ruse used similar mechanic.

It's not standard "paper-scissors" game, like StarCraft, were you have to build proper counter-units specifically designed to destroy such units.

 

So basically what you are writing is already used - more or less. Mostly by one of the best RTS game studio, Relic Entertainment.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Traymen

[Chimas 7]

Sure, in the reddit version of this thread I ask ppl that plays other RTS (that I don't play) to report that.

 

I agree that it would be better to limit which type of units can get upgrades from repair, so it would become one of their special features.

Still, the focus would be to create more risks and targets in-game. Someone commented that it would be difficult to micro for the average player, that's why we don't see this feature more often. From the standing point of someone making a sellable product, I agree. Thank god we have mods out there.