Goodbye SAGE Engine... Hello Frostbite 2

[Sonic 295]

With Generals 2 using the much newer, and probably better Frostbite 2 engine, has anyone stopped to think that all links back to Westwood Studios are now well and truly gone since C&C 4 was the last game to use the SAGE/RNA engine. I'm all for moving forward and I think the change to Frostbite 2 engine is a great move in terms of its power. But we have officially seen the end of an era with the SAGE engine now retired.

 

For those who don't know, the SAGE engine was developed by Westwood Studios, originally they called it W3D, it was used for Emperor: Battle for Dune and of course C&C Renegade. It became the SAGE Engine (Strategy Action Game Engine) in 2002 when EA Pacific (formally Westwood Pacific) announced C&C Generals. When EALA announced Red Alert 3 it got a new name thanks to some upgrades, SAGE/RNA (Renderware New Architecture).

 

Thanks for the memories W3D/SAGE/RNA. You can rest now.

 

SAGE Engine history here: http://en.wikipedia....8game_engine%29

[Luk3us 63]

Having played a fair bit of Battlefield 3 I can say the move to the Frostbite engine is great for C&C. As for the links back to Westwood I'm surprised you of all people would mention them Sonic. Usually your the one calling for people to see past the old roots of the franchise.

 

Regardless Frostbite 2 here we come!

[Golan 6]

There's just this tiny little problem that Frostbite 2 might support neither modding nor mapping, as seen with previous games using that engine.

[Sonic 295]

As for the links back to Westwood I'm surprised you of all people would mention them Sonic. Usually your the one calling for people to see past the old roots of the franchise.

 

Well this is not one those "we want Westwood back" threads. We will never forget the past, its fun to look back. But now is a time for moving forward. I just wanted to post a little something to say goodbye to SAGE that's all

 

There's just this tiny little problem that Frostbite 2 might support neither modding nor mapping, as seen with previous games using that engine.

 

We don't know that for sure just yet. There is a lot of time between now and the release date, things may change in modding side of things. I understand modding a big part of the C&C community but it really only appeals to a minority at best. It is funny though, the game is so far from a release and people are already worried about modding it.

[Golan 6]

We don't know that for sure just yet. There is a lot of time between now and the release date, things may change in modding side of things. I understand modding a big part of the C&C community but it really only appeals to a minority at best. It is funny though, the game is so far from a release and people are already worried about modding it.

A minority? Said "minority" is certainly en par with the MP community, just compare the number of followers/viewers mods have on ModDB alone to the average participants/viewers on tournaments or even online player numbers. Even CNCNZ would have been dead like a graveyard in the past few years if there hadn't been modding news.

Worrying about modding when the game is released and "oops, sorry we didn't think about structuring our game in a way that allows loading custom mod data" is too late. Either we worry about it now or we don't worry about it at all. If they didn't feel it a priority to develop mod support for such a huge game as BF3, C&C modding is very likely to need a push.

[Doctor Destiny 41]

I disagree. There are far fewer modders than there are players. That trend started with Generals really and the number of modding teams has declined with newer releases. How many mods are there for Tiberium Wars? How about Red Alert 3? Probably not very many, but Tiberian Sun and Red Alert 2 are still thriving with modding life. There's a reason for that and it centers around complexity. The more complicated things get, the fewer teams you're going to have if they've stuck with a certain series of games. I don't foresee many existing teams venturing into Generals 2 to begin with. Might bring in a little new blood though.

 

However, there's still plenty of time between now and 2013.

[Golan 6]

What significance does the number of modders have? Is tournament play irrelevant because there are only so many tournament hosts? What counts is the number of players involved and especially on the issue of modding, this can be several thousand times the number of people directly involved. Heck, take Shockwave for example, it has 200.000 downloads alone on a team of about 20 devs!

Modding was at its height with Generals which isn't fundamentally different from modding TW or RA3. Yes, work is scaled up by factor ~4 but it is still using the same techniques. There are one-man projects for TW (and RA3?) and they are amongst the bigger mods, so the complexity argument is void. People simply have been bored away from modding by the extremely long delay in the release of the TW SDK - when it finally came around, most people simply where too demotivated to venture beyond the two lines of basic batch and the one klick required to get the compiler running. It's the ambiguity to the situation that destroyed so much and right now we are facing a similar situation.

Gen2 is aimed at being an AAA title, meaning a much bigger playerbase than what we had with earlier CNCs. Even now, many of the bigger modding teams simply require one or two persons to handle the actual implementations (coding, rigging) or just telling others what to do, while especially the Art and Sound sector is recruited from outside the active modding community. The much bigger player- and fanbase plus the weight of such a title would expand the numbers of artists available tenfold.

[Sonic 295]

Golan, I think your missing my point. Modding is a large part of the C&C community, spread across the older games and newer games. What I was trying to say was from a C&C fan perspective the modding side doesn't appeal to everyone. When we post news about mods it doesn't generate that much interest, official news about C&C games shows far greater numbers. You only need to look at the replies/views stats in our news forum to see that.

 

Only a handful of mods, such as Shockwave, have achieved the success and popularity. All well deserved to.

 

Yes your right, if it were not for the talented mod teams out there, CNCNZ.com would have very little to cover, and I thank them very much for what they produce. Hell I've taken so much **** in the past and been heavily criticized about the fact CNCNZ.com never covered much modding news. I feel we have changed all that. In the past 18-24 months we have virtually quadrupled our mod news coverage. So don't think I was trying shine a bad light on modding. Its just not as big and as interesting as you think it is.

 

CNCNZ.com fully supports modding. We will try to work with any mod team out there that needs some promoting.

 

So yeah, modding and how important it will be with Generals 2 is something to be determined. But if the game can't be modded in anyway I don't think it will be a determining factor in it's success. Ask yourself this question. When a long time C&C fan goes to buy his copy of Generals 2 do you think the first question in his or her mind is "I wonder if I can make mods for it?". Chances are its the furtherest thing in there mind.

[Golan 6]

Of course not, half of them will be scared of by Origin anyways.

 

Anyways, what you describe applies to practically anything after game launch. Do you think when people buy the new C&C, they ask themselves "I wonder if this game will receive adequate patch supports", or "I wonder if this game will DC as much as older titles" or ... ? These are all important bits and pieces but practically no one worries about it before having played a couple of games - everyone just assumes a state between how it was perviously handled by that developer and the press releases. This is why such long-time effects are the important difference between fire-and-forget games and big, long-lasting series with a robust player base.

I'm not saying Modding is the biggest, baddest factor of C&C, yo dawg. (I've checked it... really didn't say that.) I could merely break someone's nose whenever I have to read that modding concerns "a minority at best". Because that's simply not true, so it sucks double when people talk you down like that. Modding/Mapping has done a lot for this community and it would really help if for once people wouldn't be all "here, have a cookie, kid, now shut up" whenever the modding community needs just a bit of support. Real "funny", haha.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Golan

[Guest Stevie_K]

Mods, modding and the people that revolve around them is what dragged me into the C&C community back in the days, not the games themselves.

 

When you play the game, complete it only to find there's no extra content available, you either put the game on the shelves for good, or you start contributing to the creation of new content. Point is that if you take away the possibility to create mods or in the least maps, chances are there will be no creative community to back up the franchise.

 

[Publix666 0]

Golan, I think your missing my point. Modding is a large part of the C&C community, spread across the older games and newer games. What I was trying to say was from a C&C fan perspective the modding side doesn't appeal to everyone. When we post news about mods it doesn't generate that much interest, official news about C&C games shows far greater numbers. You only need to look at the replies/views stats in our news forum to see that.

 

Only a handful of mods, such as Shockwave, have achieved the success and popularity. All well deserved to.

 

Yes your right, if it were not for the talented mod teams out there, CNCNZ.com would have very little to cover, and I thank them very much for what they produce. Hell I've taken so much **** in the past and been heavily criticized about the fact CNCNZ.com never covered much modding news. I feel we have changed all that. In the past 18-24 months we have virtually quadrupled our mod news coverage. So don't think I was trying shine a bad light on modding. Its just not as big and as interesting as you think it is.

 

CNCNZ.com fully supports modding. We will try to work with any mod team out there that needs some promoting.

 

So yeah, modding and how important it will be with Generals 2 is something to be determined. But if the game can't be modded in anyway I don't think it will be a determining factor in it's success. Ask yourself this question. When a long time C&C fan goes to buy his copy of Generals 2 do you think the first question in his or her mind is "I wonder if I can make mods for it?". Chances are its the furtherest thing in there mind.

 

Actually mod support/custom content and play is one of the first things on my mind when i buy any RTS or RPG. The game itself is only going to be interesting for so long. After that, you either shelve it, or make/play mods. If a game doesnt support mods now a days, then i wont buy it on PC, period. Thats one of the HUGE advantages PC's have over consoles, and developers are stupid to not support the modding community, because its them who keeps their game alive well after they have stopped putting out content for it, or supporting it.

 

Sorry for going off topic, just wanted to chime in on this conversation here, because mod support will REALLY weight in on if i purchase Generals 2 or not.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Publix666

[Plok 323]

I could merely break someone's nose whenever I have to read that modding concerns "a minority at best". Because that's simply not true, so it sucks double when people talk you down like that. Modding/Mapping has done a lot for this community and it would really help if for once people wouldn't be all "here, have a cookie, kid, now shut up" whenever the modding community needs just a bit of support. Real "funny", haha.

You just don't get it, do you? Modding seems to be big just because we in the News Team had nothing else to post about, so sometimes we even had 3 or more mods covered in a single day. But I don't seriously think that many people actually read anything more than the topic title. You'll see this better when Gens2 information starts to exit the dev studio - we will cover both Gens2 and mods equally and it will seem that Gens2 is getting more attention (and it will, as more people will comment on it).

 

Also, dig around a bit and see how many C&C fans want mods, and how many of them want a new game or official patches.

[Golan 6]

I'm sorry but could one of you please tell me where I said that modding is more important than the entire ****ing game? Because I can seriously not remember ever having been that stupid to have said, written or thought that. Please enlighten me, seeing how I really don't get it.

 

€dit

Wait a second, did you specifically cut out that "I'm not saying Modding is the biggest, baddest factor of C&C" part only to lecture me on how modding isn't the biggest factor of C&C? I think I'm beginning to "get it" very well...

Edited December 13, 2011 by Golan

[Nmenth 290]

I, at least, understand your argument, Golan.

 

Great original content makes the game good in the short run, modding makes a game good in the long run. EA has a reputation of dropping their games like a hot pan after release, so it is up to the modders to make the game stay fresh for the decade (or two) to come.

 

Removal of the modding aspect leaves you with only the short run, meaning by 2015, Generals 2 will be completely irrelevant while there will still be people dusting off their old First Decade disks to try out a new mod.

[Doctor Destiny 41]

Neither of you get it. Modding is not the driving factor for sales or making choice to buy a game for a good chunk of game players. There are a far greater number of players and that's always going to be the case. No gaming company worth it's salt is going to cater to modders specifically because they're a minority in the spectrum of potential buyers. Hell, when I buy a new game, modding is the last thing on my mind. That was true for RA2, YR, Generals/ZH, Tiberium Wars, Red Alert 3, et al. That's going to be the mindset of at least 95 percent of buyers. Cause, you gotta remember, not everyone buys games on their own; many are given as presents so modding is going to be the very last thing on their minds.

 

Modding is a low sales point for a good chunk of developers. It shouldn't be forgotten, but it's unlikely to be a pressing concern this early. Especially when there are more important concerns... like getting a working ****ing game out the door.

[Golan 6]

Neither of you get it.

Really, I'm sick of hearing this. Destiny, I've seen you use some pretty strong language lately, so:

Read the ****ing posts you are directing this bull**** at!

 

Yes, I get it that modding/mapping isn't the biggest thing ever about a game. I've never denied it and in fact acknowledged it myself.

Yes, I get it that you and some others here don't give a **** about modding - guess what, that doesn't make that mindset a quantifiable portion of the playerbase. The number of people interested in modding/mapping however is.

Yes, I get it that you think no sane dev caters to modders/mappers. Did you ever take a look at the current Valve games or C&C's direct competitor, SC2? SupCom? TW and RA3?

Yes, I get it that only a small portion will actively mod/map for the game. That's why I've pointed out the much larger player base, which directly relates to the number of people who bought the game and are interested in mods/maps.

 

Yes, I get it that you think modding isn't a concern now - tell you what, it is, because retrofitting an engine after release to properly support modding/mapping is a big waste of time. The entire point of there being a good two years left till release is that things needing this time should be handled before the time is up. They can delay the tools alright, but the foundation for this has to be laid much earlier.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Golan

[Doctor Destiny 41]

If you get it, why are you still bitching?

[Golan 6]

Bitching seems to be the appropriate tone around here lately.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Golan

[Nmenth 290]

Modding still applies to sales, again, to the long run and indirectly. When you are buying new a game, it is true that few would consider whether it can be modded or not, but a significantly larger number of buyers will consider the reputation of the company.

 

After release support, including mods, will increase the company's reputation for providing the best gaming experience possible. EA's reputation sucks, and it sucked before they gave us that abomination known as Tiberian Twilight. There are other factors too, DRM and such that hurt reputation, I'm not denying that, but modding support will play a role in this as well.

 

So in the short run, a really great Generals 2 will boost EA's reputation, especially if they keep the anti-piracy out of our faces. In the long run, patch support and replayability (which includes mods) take over.

 

The C&C community wouldn't be this big if mods never existed, the community forges loyalty, and if you think the existance of a community like this has no effect on sales...

[AlexB 8]

The Origin product page on Generals 2 said "Ever-Evolving Experience — Enhance your game with an expanding array of downloadable content. From maps and units to factions, campaigns, and more, the fight against terrorism is deeper than ever." If they want to make profit of gamers like this, an SDK would hurt their business model. It's better ask them what one can expect as early as possible. They said "We understand you don't like it, but at this stage it's too late to change anything" on TT, also.

 

Mods are important, maybe not for deciding to buy a game, but certainly to buy its successor, because all good memories are counted towards the game, may they come from the game or from mods. It's free PR.

[Guest Stevie_K]

An SDK might pose a minor threat to DLC sales rates in the short run, but in the long run it could be a gold worthy life extender.

 

SDK and modding tools for Generals 2 simply seems unrealistic at this point. I doubt it'll surface shortly after release if ever.

[Alex06 39]

The average fan will not think of "Can mods be made for this game?" when buying the game because they will either not pay attention to it at first, or assume that since mods are made for C&C, there will be mods for Generals 2. The crowds of fans are generally very disinformed or misinformed.

 

Eventually, they see no mods come out a few months afterwards, and wonder why. Then, it will hit them.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Alex06

[Gben 20]

This thread is supposed to be a homage to Westwood and it's SAGE engine.

I'm pretty dissapointed in most of the comments here and the direction this thread has taken.

[Doctor Destiny 41]

SAGE was fairly messy pile of **** though. Especially with Generals... so poorly designed that even new PCs chug on it. I don't see much chug on TW/RA3 at least.

[Golan 6]

It wasn't that bad if you compare the version it to other engines of their time, though they certainly didn't polish it enough (due to lack of time mainly). The real problem was that they had everything run on the same frame counter (e.g. TW: Graphics @ 30FPS, weapons @ 15FPS, logic @ 5FPS etc.) which forced everything to slow down if only one component wasn't running properly - Gen SAGE got dragged down by the sub-par pathfinding and network routines, for example. It got improved a lot over time, with the pathfinding improved and graphics boosted considerably, but the core weakness of the linked timers remained. A shame, really, but apparently rooted too deeply into the framework to be weeded out.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Golan