For all you anti-war, anti-Bush nuts...

[Cygnus X-1 12]

Invasions tend to go badly with terrorist run nations. I say blast the crap out of them. Hit the nuclear reactors and any military bases and/or R+D facilities with the US Navy and USAF.

[Inferno 22]

I say Cruise Missiles, awaaaay!!!

 

Either that, or drop a tactical nuke No, that last one wasn't really serious :wink:

[Masked Shah 5]

Bware why are you not Iraq, fighting the good fight?

Florida isn't anywhere close to Bagdad.

Shah, just because I'm not over there doesn't mean I can't support it :roll:

Would you expect everyone who supports a war to HAVE to be on the ground in order to be a legitimate supporter? I hate hearing this crap from people like you and people I talk to in real life. It's really very obnoxious.

And I'm HERE because I'm working my way into med school. That takes time.

 

Yep, they did change their tune...

they are political figures...

No, they are DEMOCRATIC political figures. Important difference there....

 

Republicans and Democrats do it as well...

As well? I cited Democrats. Also, try to dig up ANYTHING as drastic as what I cited earlier about the Republicans. Don't misunderstand me- I'm no fan of the Republican party, but they are DEFINITELY the lesser evil. No question.

 

Example: Rush Limbaugh attacks welfare, but when he was in his 20s HE WAS ON WELFARE. Rush also never voted til he was pressured to do so when he was 30. :!:

So that proves... what? Also, you jumped from political leaders to a random political PUNDIT. Keep focus or you'll sound like you're rambling...

Rush Limbaugh is probably the most brillian political commentator in history. The man is ALWAYS RIGHT. Try to argue against him, and you'll be reduced to pointless personal attacks and fat jokes, just like every other lib out there :roll:

On an intellectual playing field, you lose.

 

Like I said "Conservatives and Liberals are the same clowns"

Now you're jumping from parties to ideologies. Good lord dude... pic a point and stick with it!

 

But to shut down this blatantly false point of yours, Conservatives DON'T change with the political winds. Neither do true liberals, frankly (they're consistently wrong :wink: ). There is a clear distinction between Republicans and Conservatives and Democrats and Liberals.... a distinction that you apparently don't see :?

 

Bware, instead of defending political figure or political parties

Why not excerise what you think would make America better?

When.... on earth did I defend a party? Wow.

 

You may want to try your hand at politics, instead of following others.

And now the immature jab. Okay, fine. You're the enlightened, free thinking individual, and I'm the drone, slave of the Republican party, right? How very mature of you.

For the record (HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO SAY THIS??), I do NOT always line up with the Republican party, which has really been pissing me off lately. I'm pretty fed up with the Bush administration as well (though they DO have my support). I am a true Conservative, and am NOT just following someone. That implication is extremely insulting, and you won't ever see me accusing you of it. Please at the very least show me that same respect :roll:

 

You know what's funny Bware...

 

as much as you bad mouth Democrats...

 

You must know not everyone in Iraq is Republican, and hate being there just as anyone in warzone would...

 

Hell, many democrats died for your selfish one side lifestyle of bad mouthing them.

 

We are Americans, the whole set.

 

Typical, you got an excuse of Med school...

You lack the experiance of sacrifice, or loss.

After all you show your true colors

 

Bware, you wouldn't dare lay YOUR life such causes.

There's words for such actions for people like you.

 

I will be glad to remind you.

[General Leang 0]

For all the anti war nuts? (waves arm in the air) I think most of us are anti war at heart. After all, war is hell, there is no two ways about it. From the beheaddings of civillians to the torture at Abu Gharib, from the horrors of Vietnam to the barbaric practices of the Nazis and the Japanese Empire, it always degenerates into madness, and the actual fighting is really not much better. But there are certainly times when we must take up arms and fight. Was Iraq one of them? Whatever the intentions were for the conflict, whatever might have been accomplished or averted, it distracted from another enemy who had not been dealt with. It spread the forces too thin, and had divided a world that was once united against terrorism. It has done more damage to Bush and the Republican party, to Tony Blair and his governmental office, to John Howard and the Liberals, than anything their political opponents could have dreamed of. Fuel prices have skyrocketed because of the conflict. Hatred towards the West has intensified. Men and women are killed every day in the region. A regime change and the capture of a monster has been the result. Has it all been worth it I ask?

[BWare 0]

You know what's funny Bware...

 

as much as you bad mouth Democrats...

 

You must know not everyone in Iraq is Republican, and hate being there just as anyone in warzone would...

 

 

Hell, many democrats died for your selfish one side lifestyle of bad mouthing them.

Wow shah... you have opened my eyes! I never ONCE considered that not EVERYONE in the armed services agrees with me! Amazing. What a revelation! :roll:

 

Have YOU considered that many slave owners and racists died for your rights as well? Does that STOP us from pointing out, you know, the couple of problems they had? This is a garbage point. I'm attacking a dangerous ideology and party- not the few soldiers who happen to share it. My respect for them and what they're doing FAR outweighs my disagreements with their politics. Stop making leaps like this dude- it's incredibly obnoxious.

 

We are Americans, the whole set.

No question there. But that doesn't mean some can't be wrong or even downright dangerous.

 

Typical, you got an excuse of Med school...

You lack the experiance of sacrifice, or loss.

After all you show your true colors

My "true colors?" I'm talking on a web forum dude :lol: :roll:

Oh, and how is med school a "typical excuse?" :? Are you actually thinking before typing here?

 

Bware, you wouldn't dare lay YOUR life such causes.

How dare you make that claim? You don't know me, and you're assuming a HELL of a lot. I would GLADLY be the first to respond to a draft and would serve without hesitation. But as it stands, I have other goals that I won't put on hold to satisfy self righteous idiots like yoruself.

 

There's words for such actions for people like you.

 

I will be glad to remind you.

Don't be such a damn jackass. Just because I have my sights set high, and that my goals don't include joining the military, doesn't mean that I can't respect them and their mission. What the hell is wrong with you? Are you going to call me a coward for not putting my life on hold, doing a COMPLETE 180, and hopping on a plane to go fight overseas? THAT'S why we have a volunteer service. Hell, I may have some medical condition that would make me useless. I could be in a WHEELCHAIR! Did you consider that? In your eyes, can they not have any opinion about the war because they're incapable of serving? Oh no- you're the only one who can hold an opinion. You know best. :roll: Quit being such an insensitive dolt dude.

[BWare 0]

For all the anti war nuts? (waves arm in the air) I think most of us are anti war at heart. After all, war is hell, there is no two ways about it.

No question. But my topic is referring to the CURRENT war in Iraq and the pacifists out there. That's what I mean by "anti war"... the folks who think that nothing is worth war.

 

From the beheaddings of civillians to the torture at Abu Gharib, from the horrors of Vietnam to the barbaric practices of the Nazis and the Japanese Empire, it always degenerates into madness, and the actual fighting is really not much better.

You had me up the the "torture" at Club Gitmo. Ugh... TORTURE is what Saddam's regime was doing (ie, removal of limbs, meat grinders... you know, REAL torture). That incident was a couple rogue idiots acting outside of US policy who got what was coming to them with a Court Marshal. That does NOT belong in your list of attrocities there :roll:

 

But there are certainly times when we must take up arms and fight. Was Iraq one of them? Whatever the intentions were for the conflict, whatever might have been accomplished or averted, it distracted from another enemy who had not been dealt with. It spread the forces too thin, and had divided a world that was once united against terrorism.

Hmm... these are those same typical talking points dude. The fact is that we're fighting the terrorists actively overseas. Iraq is just another battlefront in the war on terror, and we are not distracted. Also.... take a look at a map sometime. Think it had any strategic significance? :wink:

 

Fuel prices have skyrocketed because of the conflict. Hatred towards the West has intensified. Men and women are killed every day in the region. A regime change and the capture of a monster has been the result. Has it all been worth it I ask?

It has. The people are able to vote in elections, little girls are going to school for the first time, and women are finally free to have the basic rights that they DESERVE as human beings, and the freaking torture rooms, rape rooms, and mass graves have been shut down. This kinda gets glossed over by just about everyone it seems.... they like to dwell EXCLUSIVELY on the negative :roll:

 

Oh yeah, and an unstable, evil dictator with aspirations of gaining WMD is now in custody and facing trial by his own people. Yeah.

[General Leang 0]

No question Saddam Hussein was a monster whose atrocities scumbags such as Private England could not possibly hope to match, a stain that should be removed. When you bring up all the atrocities he committed it puts things in perspective. The sad thing is the results of the war, and for all the benefits that have come from it one cannot help but wish for it to have been handled diffirently, with the political and economic reprocussions and the fighting of the insurgents, not to mention that war is something that is far removed from the way it is glossed over in even the most realistic of games.

 

Just on what you said on the strategic significence of where you are fighting, I believe I see what you are saying in striking against Arab terrorists who America claims was behind September 11 (I said it that way so that someone like Hybrid does not go 'OH OH BUSH PLANNED 9/11'). There are other terrorists out there, from Jimaar Islamiah in Indonesia to Chechnian rebels, Russia is I remember the Moscow Theatre terrorist attack correctly, and to be fair they should be dealt with the Indonesian athorities andor military (to my knowledge they do not have a specialised counterterrorist group) and the Spetznaz. Given there was talk of a draft, possibly drummed up by Liberals to cause fear of a Bush reelection but still there, given the possibility of a draft America might not be able to tackle the world, to take on all the fronts in their fight as maybe they would like to.

[BWare 0]

The sad thing is the results of the war, and for all the benefits that have come from it one cannot help but wish for it to have been handled diffirently, with the political and economic reprocussions and the fighting of the insurgents...

"Hindsight alone is not wisdom, and second guessing is not a strategy."

-George Bush

:wink:

It's true though. Sure there are things we could have done better, but what good does bitching about it now do? Given the circumstances at the time, I think we did a damn good job.

There are other terrorists out there, from Jimaar Islamiah in Indonesia to Chechnian rebels, Russia is I remember the Moscow Theatre terrorist attack correctly, and to be fair they should be dealt with the Indonesian athorities andor military (to my knowledge they do not have a specialised counterterrorist group) and the Spetznaz.

Sure, but how many are actively trying to destroy the United States? I think it's pretty darn obvious who we should be directly concerned about.

Given there was talk of a draft, possibly drummed up by Liberals to cause fear of a Bush reelection but still there, given the possibility of a draft America might not be able to tackle the world, to take on all the fronts in their fight as maybe they would like to.

That is very unlikely. Plus, that draft talk was ABSOLUTELY drummed up by the left. That was nothing but a political tactic that tried to hurt Bush's ratings. Our military is, and according to all estimates and even all but the most extreme worst case scenarios will continue to be, a volunteer service. There are plenty of people who choose to serve, and I thank God for what they're willing to do for this country. They're great people who are worthy of respect... not "ignorant farm boys" like that idiot madbadger likes to call them :roll:

[General Leang 0]

Sure, but how many are actively trying to destroy the United States? I think it's pretty darn obvious who we should be directly concerned about.

 

All of them. From Bin Laden to Amrozi, every single person who takes up arms to harm those who cannot fight back (as demonstrated from Saddam's gassing of the Kurds to September 11, from Bali to Saudi Arabia and Egypt, from Spain to England, they must all be dealt with.

 

Just on the draft, you might like this.

 

[TheBlackOut 7]

Awesome comic Leang.

[Cygnus X-1 12]

One must consider the good that has been done for the people of Iraq and neighboring nations. The Iraqi economy has imporved tenfold, the people lovethe US troops (and not for the weaponry). The ones that attempt to kill US and Iraqi forces are almost exclusively outsiders. Sent from other nations masquearding as locals, the cowardly terrorists do not show their faces, but instead resort to hidden bombs and scaring people into keeping quiet about them.

 

There are too many belligerents on this planet for the US to deal with them all, at least at all at once. This is why we rely on the support of our allies (France, Germany ect :roll: ) to help us in this goal of peace. Granted, it will take long wars, hardships, sacrifice, and qutie a bit of political and civil unrest, but we cannot simply get rid of terrorism by talking about it and debating in the senate.

 

I am grateful for all of those brave souls who volunteer for ouor military forces (and those of any other respectable nation) but with people like Micheal Moore and Cindy Sheean, not to mention the "party crasher" polotics of the senate and congress, the military's recruitment rates have suffered. We cannot hope to accomplish anything in the Middle East if we have a tained political arm and a supressed military one. We need our troops just as much as we need stong political leaders who arent part of the party crahsers policy.

 

Unfortunatley, we are largely lacking in one, and starting to lack in another.....

[Alphabear 11]

Im not sure about all the iraqis loving the US troops. Remember the scandal where all those people that were jumping ton the statue of saddam after it was pulled down were actually paid by the media to make it look like they were on the US side. The media played a big part in the war especially at the start. Most Iraqis dont see it as liberation, they see it as one tyrant being replaced by foreign invaders.

 

One example as to why they see it this way is that the US has just build thousands of dams so there is enough water for the population. They have to pay for the water which is perfectly normal as thats what happenes everywhere. The problem is that the revenues from it aren't going to the Iraqi government so that the Iraqis can become self sufficient its going to the US government. Sure some of that money will eventually go back to iraq but the iraqis dont see that. The iraqis see it as foreign rule where the Iraqi government isnt in control which increases both resentment of the occupation and less respect for their own government

 

The US has to remember that Iraqis aren't as exposed to the media as western nations so they have to be more careful with the way they operate

[BWare 0]

The media played a big part in the war especially at the start. Most Iraqis dont see it as liberation, they see it as one tyrant being replaced by foreign invaders.

And, if ALL the coverage is propaganda (:roll:), how the hell can YOU make that claim? For someone with 0 credibility, you're REALLY biting off more than you can chew.....

 

I would make the case that we have been received far BETTER than what has been portrayed in the news. This is based on the strong liberal slant of basically the entire journalism industry, coupled with their desire (really need) for sensationalism. Happy headlines don't sell newspapers.

 

The iraqis see it as foreign rule where the Iraqi government isnt in control which increases both resentment of the occupation and less respect for their own government

Here you're AGAIN acting as a spokesperson for the Iraqi people.... what gives? Where are you typing from, anyway? :roll:

Again, this is purely speculative (though spoken as fact by alphabear), and we have NO reason to even believe that it's true. Reasonable people would see the US assistance as NECESSARY and incredibly gracious of us. We owe them nothing- we could pull out tomorrow and leave the country to collapse under its own unpreparedness. But that would be bad for everyone, so we stay and do what we can to help until they become totally self sufficient. Again, we have to assume that they will be somewhat reasonable, otherwise we fall into the trap of mindless, loser pessimism, ie "it's hopeless! There's nothing we can do, no solution! Let's bend over and grab the ankles!" etc etc....

[Alphabear 11]

The media played a big part in the war especially at the start. Most Iraqis dont see it as liberation, they see it as one tyrant being replaced by foreign invaders.

And, if ALL the coverage is propaganda (:roll:), how the hell can YOU make that claim? For someone with 0 credibility, you're REALLY biting off more than you can chew.....

As soon as someone says something that differs from your viewpoint you immediatly accuse them of having 0 credability. Give me one good reason why i have no credability and you do. Talk about assumptions.

 

Did i ever say all media was false propaganda? No i didnt. Also what i stated was from a public opinion survey undertaken in post war Iraq.

 

Also did i ever say that the US should pull out straight away or should have never gone into iraq in the first place? Once again the answer is no. I agree that liberating iraq should be a good thing. What i disagree with is they was the US is operating in post war iraq. Insted of taking all the revenue from the iraqi water services it should be going to the Iraqi government where it rightfully belongs. If the money went there the Government would have more money to be able to take care of things meaning the countries economy would be rebuilt quicker meaning less reliance on coalition forces and contractors rebuilding.

[BWare 0]

As soon as someone says something that differs from your viewpoint you immediatly accuse them of having 0 credability. Give me one good reason why i have no credability and you do. Talk about assumptions.

That's a cheap shot. What I said, I backed up. You, a person not living in or having any direct connection to Iraq, made a general statement about how they're all feeling... something that would be a leap for even an Iraqi citizen to say. I have just as little credibility as you, so I posed an argument based on a couple factors, whereas you took it upon yourself to speak for the entire freaking country.

 

Did i ever say all media was false propaganda? No i didnt. Also what i stated was from a public opinion survey undertaken in post war Iraq.

Okay, then that adds some credibility to your point there, but you should still really cite a source.... "public opinion surveys" are always suspect.

 

I agree that liberating iraq should be a good thing. What i disagree with is they was the US is operating in post war iraq. Insted of taking all the revenue from the iraqi water services it should be going to the Iraqi government where it rightfully belongs.

I would argue that the Iraqis should pay us for their own liberation. Why do you feel that the revenue, from systems WE'RE building, "rightfully belongs" to them? Hell, we're digging them wells and doing what's necessary so they don't die of thirst, and all you have to say is that we're stealing that money from them? Wow.... very strange perspective there.

 

If the money went there the Government would have more money to be able to take care of things meaning the countries economy would be rebuilt quicker meaning less reliance on coalition forces and contractors rebuilding.

That's a very generalized, very unspecific point. It's far to multifaceted to say anything like that... and again, people smarter than us, with far more information and understanding, are making those calls.

[Cygnus X-1 12]

How do I know that the people of Iraq like our troops? (and not for the weaponry they're toting around)

 

Because I've seen pictures that Marines (not the f*****media) have brought back. I've seen video footage from the country, shot by Marines and their own cameras, not hte BS that we get on the news. It really breakes the hearts of the troops to see Iraqi children all over the place asking for sunglasses and candy, and then troops cant really give it to them (A: they ave no candy, B: they need the shades for their vision) and to see them carrying weapons.

 

O, and Alphabear, you being from australia (nothing wrong with that) dont try to make it sound like you know whats going on. Media here is bad enough, but second an teritary media sources that get to other places are far worse.

 

BWare is right, the media never shows whats really happeneing, they only focus on the negative, where the "action" is. I have yet to see good pictures or reports on the news at night, yet what I saw from the 3 Marines who went to my school to show us what was really happeneing over htere, there is so much more than the God-forsaken media ever shows. Anyone who makes anyclaims against US because of what they see and hear on the news, and soley upon that information, deserves to be straanded on an island. Get the whole picture before you start making claims about anything. (you is generalized here)

[General Leang 0]

And the media is biased towards the left. Need evidence?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think I will stop myself there before I make myself sick. I could provide the actual reports, essays and the like if you so wish, but I think this is rather clear.

[Guest MadBadger]

 

Nice find Leang..... and i have stayed out of this one...... Too tempting to join but i wont...... (I'll help Back TSBO if he needs it, thou hes doing ok for himself )

 

 

-edit-.... blurgh.... called vodka.... and also stupid amounts

[BWare 0]

Amen Cygnus. Very well said.

 

Leang, you rock with the comics as always :lol:

Those were brilliant :wink:

 

Oh, and apparently badger isn't even sure what side he's on..............

[Alphabear 11]

Bware - Im sorry i couldnt provide the exact source from the opinion poll because it was a souce in an exam essay and an important one that counts heavily for my OP so the source had to be handed it. I will try and track down the sources that we were given in the essay but it was an article translated from one of the Iraqi newspapers that are now allowed to operate in Iraq.

 

Cygnus - Me being from Australia not the US doenst effect much. We have news teams operating in Iraq just as you guys do. We dont just rely on tertiary sources for our news.

 

Leang - Not all media is biased towards the left and most change regularly although i must agree that i have never seen a political cartoonist that wasnt biased to the left. Look at the Iraq war. At the start of the war almost all media was presenting the war as everything was going perfect with little human casulties and the local populations loving the coalition. An example of this is how the media paid Iraqis to smash the statue of Saddam and jump all over it to present the war as a savior to the Iraqi people. The only real exception to this was when the media reported about US troops raising the US flag over an Iraqi palace which was quickly taken down. If you jump foreward to today those same media companies (bar a few) have changed sides and are now reporting the opposite.

 

The media has way to much control nowdays on the world. They tell the masses what to think and a large portion dont think twice about their agenda.

[BWare 0]

You're mostly right there dude, but I don't think you're really seeing the severity of the leftist slant in the media. The reason that there was positive reporting during the invasion phase of the war was because it went REMARKABLY well. That was one of the cleanest, most effective invasions in history. But they're all too eager to report the negatives over the positives now that we have a messy occupation to deal with.

 

Those on the left are entirely invested in defeat. What's good for America is bad for them.... bad news becomes a feeding frenzy, and good news is usually completely ignored.

[Cygnus X-1 12]

I dont think it would be as bad of a problem if people could think for themselves. But as we've seen (and as Alphabear pointed out) people dont. They accept what they see in the news without a second thought. And if they hear otherwise, "Oh, they were paid to say that" ect.

[Doctor Destiny 41]

What have I said before, guys? Sensationalism sells... and in this day and age, it does some all too well.

[General Leang 0]

You only need to look at Michael Moore. He is a bull**** artist extrodanaire who craves sensationalism. A lot of what he portrays has been proven false, he uses events such as the Academy Awards for a political platform, and this type of tactic makes him reviled and puts his name in the media, which is probably part of the reason that he did it.

[Cygnus X-1 12]

"Hey, is that the word gullible written on the ceiling?"

 

:roll:

 

Wheres that crusade against stupidity? Man, I just cant wait until next election run. :roll: Watching the "debates" will only further convince me that we are all lost.