Conspiracy!

[Nmenth 291]

oh, you've overstepped the line with such swearing Blytwo. Consider yourself banned from posting for a week... cos I can! Goodbye for now.

With his level of immaturity it seems likely being punished for his crimes will drive him away permanently with a severe grudge against these forums (beyond stating that, I couldn't care less).

[Mina Synd 0]

wow... yah, i just read all this. and goddam you all talk a load of crud (note, ALL OF YOU.) i'm not saying anything about the content there but it was just blah blah blah on and on about the same old rhetoric. if bly got temp-banned really DD should too. they were both insulting people... it's not very fair for you to take side y'know x3

 

also, none of you really offered any valid facts. all the conspiracy sites and stuff were all youtube videos or those homemade sites...

and all the sites offered by the anti-conspiracy people were all government sites; if it were a conspiracy (either with the US government or terrorists somehow setting up demolitions or whatever...) the governmental sites wouldn't admit to this would they? XD

 

the closest thing to real info there was the info from the people that made the towers. but then again, they could have lied to cover their asses or have been bribed/blackmailed... so it's about as reliable as everything else.

 

let's just leave it at this: we don't know 100% what happened, contary to what we're told. none of us were inside the buildings at the time and saw the explosions or damage close up. we probably won't find out EXACTLY what happened for another 20 years, heck, maybe not in our lifetimes. we just have to trust in the government and believe it was terrorists crashing a couple of passenger planes into buildings. nothing can be said otherwise until actual documents from inside the government is released (if said things exist)

 

so let's just leave it and stop arguing with eachother. i mean really, if you can't have a healthy debate without resorting to slagging eachother off, don't argue. the whole thing is one big redundant point anyway since no-one can prove anything (unless one of you happen to have footage of yourself planting explosives inside the tower with proof showing it is actually the tower inside... with a time and date on the footage XD)

[TheBlackOut 7]

1. The Iraqi war is only about oil, nothing more.

2. I never said anything about gov vs itself but rather the American Central Bank vs the US, and the world.

 

In order to keep a population under their control there needs to be some sort of enemy figure; Terrorists.

The media and American Education is influenced by this, to keep the population occupied, rather that weaseling out the true culprit.

Does this mean evil? Or is it just an enemy figure to keep population below the line of control...

[Ter-ror-ist]: 2. a person who terrorizes or frightens others.

Is it really that hard to believe that we really screwed around in the Middle East for a long time, got people to hate us, then got attacked for it? It's not hard to believe that people hate us because what we've done. It's blowback, that's what 9/11 was.

 

I don't like the Federal Reserve, but I don't think it orchestrated 9/11.

[Mina Synd 0]

well i'm honestly not sure if it's quite so far fetched. remember the amero coin that was going to replace the dollar? we all laugh at it and say it was a bad joke because of some guy trying to expose it. but if you check the federal reserves website, and the main banks, you can actually buy ameros of various types, the first printed stuff which was just finished to check if it was right. couple of hundred copies of each coin... lots of different coins, each one in shiny and dull...

 

... ... ...nah just messing with you xD you can actually get ameros from a site, many many different types. even if they are fake, someone went through a LOT of effort to make them look real... they are impressive...

apparently they are actually made by the site/person, daniel carr. take a look... they look pretty cool. if i lived in north america i would so totally buy a load of various types then try to use them as actual currency... then when people question me i'd say like, "well what, haven't you heard? this is the amero. it's replacing the dollar. one amero is worth $25... probably double that. thankfully i changed up my money for free at a 1:1 replacement, but now they've put things into effect. if you want the cash in your bank account back you have to pay for it at a fraction of the amount of ameros. or you could cash it in gold quickly... that might work. anyway, are you gonna let me pay with this or are you gonna make me wait until your shop goes out of business in a week for not catching up?" XDDD

 

http://www.dc-coin.com/index.asp?Category=...Action=VIEWCATS

 

i know. horribly mean. but you gotta admit, it would be epic. if you go to a town far away that you are NEVER going to go to again... maybe buy a dozen of the 100 amero coins. then buy a load of items for an insanely high price. maybe $5k... and BAM. you just got yourself an old car... a down payment on a house... a shopping trolley's worth of games. half a dozen new pcs with the latest technology... or hell, just buy load of fancy stuff then sell it to someone else for a slightly higher price. not only have you then got the worth of the item minus the cost of the ameros, but you've made a profit ontop of that for BOOSTING the sell price xD

 

though you could only do it in that shop once. so i guess you'd have to go back and buy more coins... find a new state... XD sadly i don't think the site sells enough coins to be able for a few people to be able to do it more then once o.o; heck, most of the stuff is sold out already ;-; which is sad... i would like one just to put on my shelf ^-^

 

also... BAD BLACKOUT! D:< *smacks on the wrist with the naughty stick!* you started the argument again! XD

[Doctor Destiny 41]

if bly got temp-banned really DD should too. they were both insulting people... it's not very fair for you to take side y'know x3

No I shouldn't. I didn't go on a massive swearing tirade like he did because he kept getting proven wrong.

 

also, none of you really offered any valid facts.

Fiesta and I offered plenty of facts inferred by our own independent research, which we actually sourced and cited unlike Bly who never offered a single source except for Zeitgeist and we all know what a mockery of a source that is.

 

and all the sites offered by the anti-conspiracy people were all government sites; if it were a conspiracy (either with the US government or terrorists somehow setting up demolitions or whatever...) the governmental sites wouldn't admit to this would they? XD

I didn't use government sources. I used independent sources like Popular Mechanics, and several other 9/11 myth sites with similar information and themes.

 

the closest thing to real info there was the info from the people that made the towers. but then again, they could have lied to cover their asses or have been bribed/blackmailed... so it's about as reliable as everything else.

An architect will not compromise the integrity of his own structure. That's just not going to happen, not to mention the WTC Towers 1 and 2 went up in the 1970s, a good 25 years before the events of 9/11.

 

we don't know 100% what happened, contary to what we're told

We have a pretty damn good idea from the evidence left behind and the phone calls made on the planes while all of this transpired. It's impossible to refute these phone calls since there is recorded evidence of many calls being made from phones during the attacks. If that's not proof enough, then nothing is.

 

we just have to trust in the government

wat?

 

nothing can be said otherwise until actual documents from inside the government is released (if said things exist)

What do you think the 9/11 Comission and the NIST Reports are? >_>

 

the whole thing is one big redundant point anyway since no-one can prove anything

Fiesta, Duke, Alpha and myself proved the conspiracy wrong with common sense, critically analyzing news footage, analyzing the reports and other sources. There is, with no doubt, that demolitions did not bring down the WTC. Period.

[Mina Synd 0]

seriously, i was never arguing FOR the demolition theory. if you remember, my theory was that there was a heck of a lot more explosives or fuel or SOMETHING on the planes when they hit the towers... the explosions were too big and brutal just to be standard explosions with what they had on them... i mean i guess it's possible - we've never seen a plane that big hit a tower of that size before so we don't know the affects. but like i said previously, i've seen plane explosions before and they've never appeared that intense...

 

but y'know. governments always release reports on what they say happened... it's not until a long time later that extra files get released, normally when the that administration is long out of power and gone, and sufficient time afterwards has been established. i mean look at all the big proven true theories out there... they've only been fully proven when many years later new private documents have surfaced when a key player has outlived his silence time or outlived the people threatening to kill him, or a government passes some law to release more data... we only found out about a lot of things lately as it is...

 

you can't rely on the current results. i mean if like, 20 years from now a file gets released and says like "oh, in actual fact there happened to a meeting of the ten most powerful secret people there and they died, only now are we allowed to release this information because of what they have been involved in in the past..." then yah i'd accept that as the conspiracy result and take everything else as being truthful unless sometime later something popped up that said otherwise. but simply put i don't want to write off a decision on what happened there until we get EVERY piece of information on everyone, not just the info that these agencies have chosen to release to the public o.O;

 

aaand 9/11 sites? do these sites offer documented info, or are they just as reliable as these youtube and tripod sites? XD i know, i should have looked at the sites when you posted the link. however at the time i had about FOUR PAGES of LONG LONG posts to read through. i was not a happy kitty.

 

when i was talking about the architect i didn't mean them messing with the tower design when they built it (though that said, for all we know someone could have skimped on materials to save costs. that would certainly explain why the towers went down so easily when they were meant to have better protection then that o.o; ) what i meant was what happened if someone (US agency, foreign power or terrorists) hired the architect to point out the weak points and help them fit things effectively... or simply went to them to ask for more detailed plans. that by itself would be enough to warrant a silencing order and bribe/blackmail... if you are making a big conspiracy you need to seal down EVERYTHING xD

 

and you didn't go on quite the large swearing frenzy he did, but you did swear a fair bit... and you were insulting everyone who said something against you longlong before he started swearing... so i guess not worthy of a temp-ban but you do need a slap on the wrist for harrassment xD AND I SHALL DO IT! D:< *spanks DD on the palm then butt with her naughty stick!* BAD DD! XD no verbally assaulting people x3; and just for good measure... *spanks again* NOT DA MAMMA! >.<

(10 points and a cookie for the first person to remember where that quote is from xD)

[Doctor Destiny 41]

seriously, i was never arguing FOR the demolition theory. if you remember, my theory was that there was a heck of a lot more explosives or fuel or SOMETHING on the planes when they hit the towers... the explosions were too big and brutal just to be standard explosions with what they had on them... i mean i guess it's possible - we've never seen a plane that big hit a tower of that size before so we don't know the affects. but like i said previously, i've seen plane explosions before and they've never appeared that intense...

These were fully fueled jumbo airliners so they're going to produce larger than average explosions. There is little evidence to support accelerants, if any at all. Not to mention, most plane explosions aren't with big airliners but prop planes and the like.

 

but y'know. governments always release reports on what they say happened... it's not until a long time later that extra files get released, normally when the that administration is long out of power and gone, and sufficient time afterwards has been established. i mean look at all the big proven true theories out there... they've only been fully proven when many years later new private documents have surfaced when a key player has outlived his silence time or outlived the people threatening to kill him, or a government passes some law to release more data... we only found out about a lot of things lately as it is...

Again, I didn't rely heavily on government sources but they're generally a good indicator. Not to mention, if this were a true conspiracy, someone on the inside would have talked or we'd have seen people just "mysteriously" disappear and these groups like the 9/11 Truth Movement would cease to be and conspiracy sites would go down within seconds of going up. If it ran that deep and the government really had a hand in murdering 2800 of its own citizens and taking down a monument in process, do you really believe they'd let these groups and sites stay alive for very long? Hell no! They'd be all over their asses in seconds to keep the secret.

 

Answer this then - If the government would kill 2800 of its own people, would they really scoff at shutting down "truth movements"? That's a serious question by the way.

 

you can't rely on the current results. i mean if like, 20 years from now a file gets released and says like "oh, in actual fact there happened to a meeting of the ten most powerful secret people there and they died, only now are we allowed to release this information because of what they have been involved in in the past..." then yah i'd accept that as the conspiracy result and take everything else as being truthful unless sometime later something popped up that said otherwise. but simply put i don't want to write off a decision on what happened there until we get EVERY piece of information on everyone, not just the info that these agencies have chosen to release to the public o.O;

See above.

 

aaand 9/11 sites? do these sites offer documented info, or are they just as reliable as these youtube and tripod sites? XD i know, i should have looked at the sites when you posted the link. however at the time i had about FOUR PAGES of LONG LONG posts to read through. i was not a happy kitty.

Yes, each of the sites Fiesta and I used offered evidence contrary to the demolitions theory, which is the major conspiracy proponent still being preached like mother****ing gospel. If you gander at a few of them, they're well done and are quite convincing when it comes to ideas, presentation and conferring with experts.

 

when i was talking about the architect i didn't mean them messing with the tower design when they built it (though that said, for all we know someone could have skimped on materials to save costs. that would certainly explain why the towers went down so easily when they were meant to have better protection then that o.o; ) what i meant was what happened if someone (US agency, foreign power or terrorists) hired the architect to point out the weak points and help them fit things effectively... or simply went to them to ask for more detailed plans. that by itself would be enough to warrant a silencing order and bribe/blackmail...

Go down easy? Are you ******* serious? The towers burned for well over an hour before collapsing down. Even the collapses took more than fifteen seconds to finish. Not to mention the severe damage to supports from the planes slamming into the towers, and the towers were not designed to withstand a jumbo airliner going over 500MPH. And, the towers fell exactly as they were designed so the structural engineering was spot on except in the event of the unforeseen.

 

if you are making a big conspiracy you need to seal down EVERYTHING xD

Impossible, especially at this magnitude.

 

and you didn't go on quite the large swearing frenzy he did, but you did swear a fair bit... and you were insulting everyone who said something against you longlong before he started swearing... so i guess not worthy of a temp-ban but you do need a slap on the wrist for harrassment xD AND I SHALL DO IT! D:<

I despise the 9/11 Truth Movement, Zeitgeist, Loose Change and anyone who diminishes the lives lost on that day. I would do the same to anyone who tried to diminish the 7/7 Britain Attack or the Tokyo Subway Sarin Gas attacks. It's a touchy subject with me and it just bothers me that someone could be so cavalier towards a loss of so many lives for so little purpose.

 

*spanks DD on the palm then butt with her naughty stick!* BAD DD! XD no verbally assaulting people x3; and just for good measure... *spanks again* NOT DA MAMMA! >.<

(10 points and a cookie for the first person to remember where that quote is from xD)

It's not verbal. It's textual.

What did I tell you about doing that to me in public? Keep it in the bedroom.

[Mina Synd 0]

one thing i've noticed is they would only stop people who have proper evidence against them... if you try to shut down all the conspiracy sites and such, that would be pretty obvious. the more you shut down, the more people are going to notice... but if you let them believe their own little things, everybody would just write it off as another conspiracy from those nuts... so not as complicated as you might think. and why do you say it would take so many people? sure, you'd have at least one person on every level of the chain downwards...

 

but beyond that... say for example the demolition theory. you'd really only need one person to plant the explosives if you had enough time... they could technically go anywhere in the building o.O it really wouldn't need to be a big operation xD; i mean the only reason there were so many terrorists is because each plane had to have enough terrorists to maintain control over all the areas at once... and there were multiple planes.

 

problem is people exggerate too much... nowadays everyone says hundreds of people are needed for the simplest things when one person can easily do most of those things o.o; i mean for starters if you've got an expert in demolitions they'd be able to set all the explosives linked together and stuff and he'd know when everything was done

 

and when i say went down easy, i meant in comparison to the fact they were meant to be completely plane-proof... i mean it's not like they just went FAILBOOMCRASH or something. but the fact they DID fall down... sure, it was more then they designed for. but when you get architects and such they always -heavily- overbuild, especially when they have the funds to do such... if an architect says it can take one tonne that means it can take between 10 and 100 tonnes XD they always seriously overbuild to prepare for the worst situations because there is always something happening worse then what they could possibly expect xD

 

also for random lulz i happened to be flicking through the tv channels the other day and i saw a programme on called "zeitgeist" o.O i was like "hmm. should i watch this for laughs?" then i was like "OMI GOSHI B-MOVIE I HAVEN'T SEEN! =O" XD

[Doctor Destiny 41]

one thing i've noticed is they would only stop people who have proper evidence against them... if you try to shut down all the conspiracy sites and such, that would be pretty obvious. the more you shut down, the more people are going to notice... but if you let them believe their own little things, everybody would just write it off as another conspiracy from those nuts... so not as complicated as you might think. and why do you say it would take so many people? sure, you'd have at least one person on every level of the chain downwards...

I'd be willing to bet there would be teams of people scouring the web and news for "truth movements" to keep them quiet. I would seriously doubt any government willing to murder its own citizens would really be troubled by swiftly destroying the truth from seeing the light of day. This isn't just a sex scandal we're talking about. It's a terrorist attack that's quite a bit more serious than the Prez getting blown on his day off.

 

but beyond that... say for example the demolition theory. you'd really only need one person to plant the explosives if you had enough time... they could technically go anywhere in the building o.O it really wouldn't need to be a big operation xD;

You mean to tell me that one person alone could rip back tiles, drywall and other materials to expose the support beams alone? No, I don't think so. This is a big operation and it would run extremely deep with so many parties involved that it would be too much of an undertaking that there would be no way to properly enact this without a hefty amount of manpower and hours. This ain't a three hour wire it up and go job...

 

i mean for starters if you've got an expert in demolitions they'd be able to set all the explosives linked together and stuff and he'd know when everything was done

He plants the devices but what about where he has to plant them? He's not tearing up a building and rebuilding it alone. There would be more involved than a demolitions expert.

 

and when i say went down easy, i meant in comparison to the fact they were meant to be completely plane-proof...

How many times must I say this? The Twin Towers were not plane proof! They were designed to withstand the impact of a 707 at cruising speed, not a 757 at over 500MPH.

[TheBlackOut 7]

also... BAD BLACKOUT! D:< *smacks on the wrist with the naughty stick!* you started the argument again! XD

It's pretty reasonable and makes sense to me. We meddle in things we shouldn't, people that we meddled with get mad and attack back. Our government uses that as an excuse to do more meddling.

[sith_wampa 6]

And will someone tell me where the hell was NORAD?

Hmmm... well they just happened to be running training simulations, and they apparently couldn't tell the reals from the fakes <<<that came from NORAD themselves.

You bastard... I personally met the men and women who piloted the fighters dispatched from Otis Air Force Base in Cape Cod, Massachusetts. I got the chance to go into these planes, nevermind see them. You have no idea what these people sacrifice for myself, Americans, and your non-American ass so we can sleep at night without having to worry about if tomorrow will be the day you and your family get to die. I find your statements incredibly ignorant and extremely offensive.

 

The other intelligent members of this forum can't seem to fix your stupidity, so I won't waste my time trying. However, your ignorance is quite amusing. I hope once you've done your time for your little tantrum you come back to continue blowing your hot air so I can continue to lmao while everyone makes you look like an idiot.

 

The best part about it is that you haven't a clue of how stupid you sound! Its freaking hilarious!

[Mina Synd 0]

you heavily underestimate people DD. don't you remember a certain whiteboy who got it into his head to blow up a government building? well if one normal person can do that, what's to say a professional couldn't? and once again i didn't say he did it in 3 hours. for all we know he could have been fixing up tiny things every day for years. and you really don't have to be an expert builder to pull down drywall. and if you're only making a little hole, all you have to do is plaster over it then paint it. even i could do that.

 

and about the argument that people would see? if you get someone in some kind of engineering clothes, like someone to fix the plumbing or the electricity. most people wouldn't take a second look at someone like that fiddling with equipment...

 

and like i've said before; they probably got ahold of the building schematics. a lot of building schematics you can get from a local library or something, it's really not that tricky. i'm sure it's a little more difficult to get the WTC plans but they're the government. they OWN the plans in the first place o.o;

 

and once again DD, way to ignore what i said. don't just read the first line and ignore the rest of the paragraph. all architects -HEAVILY- overbuild when they make a project. i'm not saying the actual building will end up overbuilt, since often in the process of building and funds everything we get crappier and cheaper along the way what with people using worse materials to save on money. but the actual ARCHITECT who designed the thing will always heavily overbuild...

[Doctor Destiny 41]

you heavily underestimate people DD. don't you remember a certain whiteboy who got it into his head to blow up a government building?

McVeigh is a different story. He didn't even enter the building! He left a big bomb in the back of a truck and LEFT it there. Not the same thing.

 

well if one normal person can do that, what's to say a professional couldn't?

The magnitude of the situation.

 

and once again i didn't say he did it in 3 hours. for all we know he could have been fixing up tiny things every day for years. and you really don't have to be an expert builder to pull down drywall. and if you're only making a little hole, all you have to do is plaster over it then paint it. even i could do that.

It's still going to take more than that alone. One man could not pull this off unless he had decades.

 

and about the argument that people would see? if you get someone in some kind of engineering clothes, like someone to fix the plumbing or the electricity. most people wouldn't take a second look at someone like that fiddling with equipment...

This isn't a movie. People have to be properly cleared.

 

and once again DD, way to ignore what i said. don't just read the first line and ignore the rest of the paragraph. all architects -HEAVILY- overbuild when they make a project. i'm not saying the actual building will end up overbuilt, since often in the process of building and funds everything we get crappier and cheaper along the way what with people using worse materials to save on money. but the actual ARCHITECT who designed the thing will always heavily overbuild...

I won't disagree. However, he overbuilt for the 1970s.

[Mina Synd 0]

yah that is true. i don't think half the planes that exist now were even considered then. i'll let that one slip. but yah, if it was a government conspiracy do you really think that either one or a small team of "plumbers" wouldn't be allowed through? i mean if they were terrorists or a foreign nations government it would be difficult... but if it was a US government conspiracy then they would be let straight through o.o;

 

rather then head with the US government route (why cut a head off a hydra?), i'mma stick with terrorists/foreign power demo'ing the building just to make sure it goes down when the planes hit (don't argue yet. hear me out, i'm compromising between you all xD) would it be necessary to get any private areas? if i remember right underneith the WTC was car parks and a train station or something. maybe some basement rooms there. had someone wired in explosives of some kind there, or on the lobby floor... heck, maybe even halfway up the building on various floors, chances are it wouldn't be off-limits. most of the building is just standard offices. there were bathrooms and such on every floor to my knowledge so the plumbing route would be accepted. same with electrics and radiators.

 

now your arguement would work if they were trying to place explosives in saaaay, the WTC's presidents room. or the VP's room. or the main meeting room or something... but would most of the building really require any kind of special access that couldn't be gained by showing the guard's at the reception some paperwork saying they need to fix something somewhere and receiving a little guest badge? o.o;

 

heck you could have the same person appearing every day/week/month and after a while the guard's wouldn't even ask questions beyond "so what is broken now then?" because let's face it, if someone has the basic paperwork to do a maintanence job, as well as the equipment and uniforms with them to do so, how many guards are going to probe deeply into the background of that paperwork? you could get away with it now let alone then when security was more lax (but i'm pretty sure the security fixes were only on public transport and airlines after the incident...)

 

i mean chances are if there was a demolitions situation happening for real, it would have a fair amount of backing by whoever wants it to happen. even terrorists have millions and billions of dollar's worth of currency. (considering now that 90% of cannibis imported into the US comes from terrorists in afghanistan...) so i'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for them to get everything needed to make it happen o.o; i mean if they managed to train 20 - 30 terrorists how to take, control or fly planes, and managed to sneak them all into america and onto planes i'm sure they could train another half dozen and give them the required things to be able to plant demolitions in the WTC over time without being discovered xD

 

no-one would have really thought much of it... they are big buildings. there are sure to be a lot of faults on a regular basis that need fixing... and this was before america started getting paranoid about anyone who looked foreign or acted "un-american" so no-one would have taken any notice. and in all honesty it would make sense covering that up - terrorists hijacking a plane is one thing. you just increase security checks. which benefits everyone anyway... but if it was discovered terrorists managed to just walk into a monument and set up explosives over many different times... they would have to change security on the whole country and such.

 

aaaand that would be bad. it would be a lot of work, a lot of hastle. people wouldn't like it... not to mention the fact that all the illegal immigrants would probably end up getting kicked out of the country (good or bad depending on what way you look at it and who you are...) i mean really, could you imagine the amount of checks that would be required everytime someone came to fix a lightbulb? and you can bet people would get paranoid and want to see proper checks on people who came to fix their things at home too...

 

once again, chances are none of this happened and it was just terrorists in planes. but i'm just speculating over what possibly might have happened to make more sense of a horrible tragedy...

[Nmenth 291]

terrorists hijacking a plane is one thing. you just increase security checks. which benefits everyone anyway...

No it doesn't.

 

and that would be bad. it would be a lot of work, a lot of hastle. people wouldn't like it... not to mention the fact that all the illegal immigrants would probably end up getting kicked out of the country (good or bad depending on what way you look at it and who you are...)

Sounds like modern airport security to me.

[Mina Synd 0]

pish. it benefits everyone WHO ISN'T TRYING TO BLOW UP THE PLANE OR STAB EVERYONE ONBOARD xD

the only hastle it is to us normal people us that we have to put our keys and belts in a little dish and put our bags through the x-ray. and get dragged away by plain clothes staff if you are looking paranoid or showing signs of nervousness...

 

but yah. i'd probably get talked to at least once xD crowds make me jumpy. so does the fact that there are so many things that have to be sorted out and i don't understand any of it, so i worry that something has been forgotten or is going wrong x3;;

 

but in comparison to airports, high security on the mainland would be a lot worse. pretty much -any- hands on trade will have to go through countless security screens at every level, from big corporations to scared old ladies o.o; which would waste everyone's time and raise costs because not as much would be getting done in a day. and if everyone is getting checked out, a LOT of people that had entered the country illegally would be caught and sent away...

 

if all the mexicans and foreigners got kicked out, who would do the low level jobs, ranging from the bin men to housemaid services. i'm sure there would be a lot of willing americans happy to have the job (which in a somewhat jobless market would be a bonus) but i honestly can't see it doing much good for public relations and the common viewpoint on foreigners. the less of them you see, the more you believe urban legends and the more you don't WANT to see them.

 

really bad vicious cycle... now i know you're all gonna say "i wouldn't do that" and rant at me, but when i say things like that i'm normally speaking about the general majority of the populous. the ones with bellow average IQ's... (and that's not an american diss, once again every countries' majority is made up of idiots. because the average human has a low IQ. go figure... it may seem odd to us here, but take into account that most of these people either don't use computers or only stick to myspace and msn... it would be pretty hard to find people of low IQ on an RTS gaming forum... people with idiotic opinions, that's a different story. but they aren't retards xD)

 

i mean the majority of america is already filled with patriotic morons who yell "YUR UN-AMERIKUN!" if you have any kind of quality that differs from their little perfect image of the ideal american... we really don't need them being anymore violent against foreigners or anyone who isn't perfect... that kind of thing already happens in texas, i don't wanna hear about it in new york or DC or florida xD (the particular texas story to which i was refering was on CNN halfway through '07, however since then they have apparently deleted the page. i found another page that quotes the description of events directly from the CNN page though: http://www.republicoft.com/2007/06/25/mob-mentality/ eeeyah. mob mentality is something that has always terrified me my whole life, because i can very easily see me being a target for my lifestyle and beliefs... don't get me wrong, i can hold my own. but being swarmed by more then 5 people at once. you can't defend against that. i don't care if you're jet li, jackie chan and chuck norris put together. heck, you could be Mr Rogers and you'd still get beaten to death after taking down a couple of them with you xD)

 

once again my thoughts turn to a certain william shatner film... (those who missed that post, look up The Intruder, or Shame on imdb.com. same movie, different titles for location...)

[Fiesta 0]

pish. it benefits everyone WHO ISN'T TRYING TO BLOW UP THE PLANE OR STAB EVERYONE ONBOARD xD

the only hastle it is to us normal people us that we have to put our keys and belts in a little dish and put our bags through the x-ray. and get dragged away by plain clothes staff if you are looking paranoid or showing signs of nervousness...

 

This wouldn't be a hassle if it took FIVE HOURS to get through if you were flagged. All this for what? So terrorists can find another way around security? If the hassle were removed or lightened, then it would make life a lot easier. "OH BUT THEN THE TURRISTZ CAN BRING ON BOMBS AND KNIVES AND STUFFS OTEHNOEZ" Then teach passengers how to defend themselves in case of a hijacking. If there's a bomb threat, tough because you can't do a whole lot about that no matter how great the security is.

 

but in comparison to airports, high security on the mainland would be a lot worse. pretty much -any- hands on trade will have to go through countless security screens at every level, from big corporations to scared old ladies o.o; which would waste everyone's time and raise costs because not as much would be getting done in a day. and if everyone is getting checked out, a LOT of people that had entered the country illegally would be caught and sent away...

 

Ehhhh........... huh. If you knew how things worked in real life then you'd know it wouldn't improve anything to have every single person and piece of cargo checked; I suppose you realize that. But having illegals found out and deported would be a good thing.

 

if all the mexicans and foreigners got kicked out, who would do the low level jobs, ranging from the bin men to housemaid services. i'm sure there would be a lot of willing americans happy to have the job (which in a somewhat jobless market would be a bonus) but i honestly can't see it doing much good for public relations and the common viewpoint on foreigners. the less of them you see, the more you believe urban legends and the more you don't WANT to see them.

 

Why wouldn't it do much good? Because we're supposed to be the "Great American Melting Pot"? There's no reason to allow illegals to stay here. If you have the papers, then sure, come on over. But it just seems to throw everything out of whack to allow millions of illegals to take shelter here and live out a dream they haven't earned.

 

really bad vicious cycle... now i know you're all gonna say "i wouldn't do that" and rant at me, but when i say things like that i'm normally speaking about the general majority of the populous. the ones with bellow average IQ's... (and that's not an american diss, once again every countries' majority is made up of idiots. because the average human has a low IQ. go figure... it may seem odd to us here, but take into account that most of these people either don't use computers or only stick to myspace and msn... it would be pretty hard to find people of low IQ on an RTS gaming forum... people with idiotic opinions, that's a different story. but they aren't retards xD)

 

IQ and common sense are 2 completely different concepts. I don't know about you, but there's something rotten about the way every other country uses the U.S. as a political punching bag. We deserve SOME flak, but not nearly as much as we get from, say, Europe.

 

i mean the majority of america is already filled with patriotic morons who yell "YUR UN-AMERIKUN!" if you have any kind of quality that differs from their little perfect image of the ideal american... we really don't need them being anymore violent against foreigners or anyone who isn't perfect... that kind of thing already happens in texas, i don't wanna hear about it in new york or DC or florida xD (the particular texas story to which i was refering was on CNN halfway through '07, however since then they have apparently deleted the page. i found another page that quotes the description of events directly from the CNN page though: http://www.republicoft.com/2007/06/25/mob-mentality/ eeeyah. mob mentality is something that has always terrified me my whole life, because i can very easily see me being a target for my lifestyle and beliefs... don't get me wrong, i can hold my own. but being swarmed by more then 5 people at once. you can't defend against that. i don't care if you're jet li, jackie chan and chuck norris put together. heck, you could be Mr Rogers and you'd still get beaten to death after taking down a couple of them with you xD)

 

I won't allow anyone to judge the U.S. just from the behavior of the crazies of Texas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Washington D.C., New York City, Detroit, and southern California. Nope, not going to. Not saying you are, but just making a statement.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Fiesta

[ICECOLDKILLA 0]

i cant read that much

[Doctor Destiny 41]

i cant read that much

Then don't post.

[Mina Synd 0]

see, teaching passengers how to defend themselves. how do you plan on doing that? gonna give everyone a five hour basics course in kung fu before they get on the plane? gonna educate the whole country in unarmed combat, bladed weapon combat or non-lethal firing weapon combat? any idea how much that would -cost-? not to mention the fact that the majority of any country are retards so trying to teach them something like that would take forever...

 

not to mention the fact that the same rules would apply to tourists flying in or out of the US... so you wouldn't just be educating americans. now what can people learn from a basic course taught before or on the plane? and if you go on a countrywide education course all that is going to do is make criminals take things up a notch around towns... instead of being robbed on the street by a couple of guys with knives, then it would be half a dozen guys with pistols or submachine guns o.O;

 

nono... if you want to make an effective terrorist deterant, you need to keep relative safety checks on the ground to weed out the majority of trouble, then you need maybe 3 - 5 air marshals on each flight. as it is i think each flight only carries a couple. which is fair enough if you only have a few terrorists on a plane... but if there are 5 or more that one marshal is pretty much boned. also i'd say have a compartment with some sort of powerful non-lethal weapons in it... tasers or some sort of long range beanbag gun or a tranq gun. basically just a lot of equipment that an air marshal can hand to some passengers if they feel they need help (it's all fair giving them glocks but let's face it, unless your chosen civvies are all ex-marines they're probably gonna shoot themselves... not to mention the results should a civvie kill a terrorist. that could end badly in court...)

 

and don't get me wrong, i -hate- illegal immigrants with a passion. they are ruining the uk as well as the us... and getting rid of them would open up a lot of jobs. however from the point of view of say, the bosses of these little companies... they simply aren't going to get a work force which would do horrible jobs for that cheaply. because you can't threaten to deport people who are registered born in that country xD

 

which means when you work it out that the cheap rubbish men or maid cleaning services are going to have to boost their prices overall to compensate for actually (shock horror) paying people the minimum wage xD which in turn screws us all over... but y'know whatever. if they would go and perform security checks on all these illegals then give them a proper chance to become real americans then sure go with it. and if they mess up, kick them right out >:3

 

once again, don't get me wrong i don't wanna make it seem like i'd be soft-touching them. a proper test judging their knowledge of america, willingness to learn and fit into the culture and so on... as well as judging things like their need to escape their previous country - though this would have to outweigh say, efforts and costs to educate them. i mean if someone speaks no english and is not willing to learn, yet they demand you give them a high level job and teach them how to do it and the only reason they came to the US was because they had conned everyone in their home country... well XD

 

america doesn't deserve as -much- flak as it gets but it still deserves some. i mean considering that it has been entering combat pretty much at least once every generation for half a century or more, when the majority of the time it has just been to try and spread democracy and maintain america's standing as world police... that and the fact that everytime america enters a war nowadays all their allies have to fight too. the uk has had pretty much no reason to invade a lot of countries... but we are close allies of the US, thus we have to aid them :\

 

also my point (which i think you understood) was that i don't wish the rest of america to turn like texas and so on... some states really haven't earned the right to say that they are the land of the free... sure, you can generally do anything in texas. but anyone else can also do what they want to you ; eh go figure i guess...

 

also back to the original points of conspiracy, i inadvertantly stumbled upon this site whilst looking for "overworld" x3;

http://www.takeoverworld.info/

i lul'd xD

[BlyTwo 0]

-sigh-

Too lazy to post the most massive post ever here...

[BioBen 3]

lol 9/11 is so last week

Best just drop it dude.

Edited December 11, 2008 by BioBen

[Fiesta 0]

-sigh-

Too lazy to post the most massive post ever here...

 

Until you lose the laziness, this is admissible as your proverbial white flag in the discussion.

 

see, teaching passengers how to defend themselves. how do you plan on doing that? gonna give everyone a five hour basics course in kung fu before they get on the plane? gonna educate the whole country in unarmed combat, bladed weapon combat or non-lethal firing weapon combat? any idea how much that would -cost-? not to mention the fact that the majority of any country are retards so trying to teach them something like that would take forever...

 

It would cost less than airport security, and if they wised up about it, it could only take as much time as standard emergency procedures.

 

not to mention the fact that the same rules would apply to tourists flying in or out of the US... so you wouldn't just be educating americans. now what can people learn from a basic course taught before or on the plane? and if you go on a countrywide education course all that is going to do is make criminals take things up a notch around towns... instead of being robbed on the street by a couple of guys with knives, then it would be half a dozen guys with pistols or submachine guns o.O;

 

You don't see the overwhelming advantage to this strategy. The more people that are armed in those situations, the less likely REAL terrorists are to make a move. Why? Well, picture this quick scenario; a terrorist stands up in the isle mid-flight and says he'll shoot anyone that tries anything. Seconds later he has maybe a dozen different weapons pointed back at him in self-defense. Even if he still has the guts to shoot someone, he can't take over the plane like that. Not a chance. Which brings me back to when they get a bomb threat; not a lot you can do about that no matter how tight security is or how many people are armed. That's a guarantee.

 

nono... if you want to make an effective terrorist deterant, you need to keep relative safety checks on the ground to weed out the majority of trouble, then you need maybe 3 - 5 air marshals on each flight. as it is i think each flight only carries a couple. which is fair enough if you only have a few terrorists on a plane... but if there are 5 or more that one marshal is pretty much boned. also i'd say have a compartment with some sort of powerful non-lethal weapons in it... tasers or some sort of long range beanbag gun or a tranq gun. basically just a lot of equipment that an air marshal can hand to some passengers if they feel they need help (it's all fair giving them glocks but let's face it, unless your chosen civvies are all ex-marines they're probably gonna shoot themselves... not to mention the results should a civvie kill a terrorist. that could end badly in court...)

 

Terrorists will ALWAYS find holes in security. ALWAYS. Complicating the situation with that many checks only makes it worse and does NOT deter the threat. Remember, simplicity is the hallmark of ingenuity. Fall back to that concept and you'll come up with something worth the time it took to think of it.

 

and don't get me wrong, i -hate- illegal immigrants with a passion. they are ruining the uk as well as the us... and getting rid of them would open up a lot of jobs. however from the point of view of say, the bosses of these little companies... they simply aren't going to get a work force which would do horrible jobs for that cheaply. because you can't threaten to deport people who are registered born in that country xD

 

Right. But if your business NEEDS immigrants to stay afloat, either you aren't running the business well enough or you're doing the wrong type of business. Walmart is obviously neither one.

 

which means when you work it out that the cheap rubbish men or maid cleaning services are going to have to boost their prices overall to compensate for actually (shock horror) paying people the minimum wage xD which in turn screws us all over... but y'know whatever. if they would go and perform security checks on all these illegals then give them a proper chance to become real americans then sure go with it. and if they mess up, kick them right out >:3

 

The cost of doing business, to be blunt. Can't do anything about it, just work with the set laws/policies and hope you survive.

 

america doesn't deserve as -much- flak as it gets but it still deserves some. i mean considering that it has been entering combat pretty much at least once every generation for half a century or more, when the majority of the time it has just been to try and spread democracy and maintain america's standing as world police... that and the fact that everytime america enters a war nowadays all their allies have to fight too. the uk has had pretty much no reason to invade a lot of countries... but we are close allies of the US, thus we have to aid them :\

 

I will admit we never should have entered Iraq. I don't know why we went in there or why we're still there. But I do know going into Afghanistan was the right thing because the part of Al Qaeda that sent the terrorists to conduct the September 11th attacks was based there.

 

also my point (which i think you understood) was that i don't wish the rest of america to turn like texas and so on... some states really haven't earned the right to say that they are the land of the free... sure, you can generally do anything in texas. but anyone else can also do what they want to you ; eh go figure i guess...

 

I understand how each state does their own thing differently based on the fundamental jurisdictions applied by the 9th and 10th Amendments, but aside from climate, crime, and natural disaster rates/risks, a lot of the states are actually quite similar. Texas is only loose because they're frigging INSANE and the cops don't give a damn.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Fiesta

[Mina Synd 0]

hahaaa... trust me, teaching an average adult self defence quickly is like teaching a five year old quantum mechanics - you might get the odd genius or random fluke but everyone else is gonna forget everything two minutes later o.o;

 

to effectively learn a martial art properly you need YEARS of training in it... there is no way you could teach anything -proper- in 5, 10, or even 30 minutes... however... if you provided instruction manuals in every seat showing how to operate a non-lethal weapon (be it a taser, beanbag gun, rubber bullet rifle or whatever...) and you keep those all locked away where the half dozen air marshalls have keys to access them o.o

 

okie, it's not as much of a good solution as letting everyone bring weapons on... but you have to take into account that not every country allows you to carry weapons! pretty much if you are flying on any flight out of the american continent, any weapon you have is going to be instantly confiscated upon landing at the other end. especially in countries like england or japan. i mean in england the laws are pretty darn strict, but if you have a shotgun licence you could get away with it. but japan? no way.

 

and what happens if you have a flight FROM one of these no-weapon countries heading towards america or whatever? no-one except the terrorists would have weapons. the system is just impractical unless you are going to issue every passenger with free weapons upon entry in the plane.

 

and if you are doing that you're just inviting everyone to kill eachother. might as well stick to non-lethal weapons.

 

the reason i say security checks is keep all the basic stuff like metal detectors... sniffer dogs... and pulling people aside who look suspicious. for starters you're still trying to keep out drugs and banned food. but getting rid of some stupid/obvious terrorists would save on a possible disaster in the air... i mean occassionally you DO get whole flights filled with children, old people, disabled and cowards... personally if a simple metal detector or pulling aside is going to save a couple of hundred lives i say it's worth it y'know...

 

i'm not gonna further argue the immigrant part there, really you've won that but i would like to point out that a fair amount of illegal immigrants really are escaping from danger and trying to find a better life and they are willing to work for it... surely these people deserve a fair chance. the whole green card system really isn't that fair. (at the moment anyway)

 

anyway. a lot of the states do have similar rules and laws... but some have massively different ones. different people too... for instance when prop. 8 came into effect and cancelled out the marriage in cali, almost everyone in the state was in uproar (not to mention a fair amount of the whole country and some of the international community too...) but if say, texas (i know i'm picking on them. but they seem to have the worst stories for some reason o.O) or another southern heavily-christian state and a law got passed to make gay marriage LEGAL there, the uproar would be equally powerful but the other way round y'know?

 

it all depends on the enviroment people have grown up in... the people around them, the state of living, the laws, levels of comfort and levels of safety... what scares me that in certain places where these enviromental laws are set to certain levels it results in people being VERY xenophobic of anything that isn't like them... it's depressing .-.

[Fiesta 0]

I held off on replying to that one initially because it just didn't lean on the logical edge, but I'm rather bored, so here I go.

 

hahaaa... trust me, teaching an average adult self defence quickly is like teaching a five year old quantum mechanics - you might get the odd genius or random fluke but everyone else is gonna forget everything two minutes later o.o;

 

to effectively learn a martial art properly you need YEARS of training in it... there is no way you could teach anything -proper- in 5, 10, or even 30 minutes... however... if you provided instruction manuals in every seat showing how to operate a non-lethal weapon (be it a taser, beanbag gun, rubber bullet rifle or whatever...) and you keep those all locked away where the half dozen air marshalls have keys to access them o.o

 

I never said anything about martial arts. I mean quick responses to situations, like how to disarm a terrorist that's not carrying a bomb or biological weapon. Which, yes, you'd be right in saying they'd probably forget in minutes, but that's not the point. Put everyone on equal ground and one of 2 things will happen; someone will find a flaw and create an uneven situation, which would actually have a fair chance of self-stabilizing unless you're talking about destroying the aircraft or something drastically stupid like that; or you'll eliminate any problems altogether. Realistically, you're dealing with the former, which is still better than what's going on now.

 

okie, it's not as much of a good solution as letting everyone bring weapons on... but you have to take into account that not every country allows you to carry weapons! pretty much if you are flying on any flight out of the american continent, any weapon you have is going to be instantly confiscated upon landing at the other end. especially in countries like england or japan. i mean in england the laws are pretty darn strict, but if you have a shotgun licence you could get away with it. but japan? no way.

 

This is why all weapons on international flights would be discreetly tagged during cargo loading and standard security checks in a manner that the weapon cannot leave the plane if the country has laws against it, but also so the weapon will not be damaged by the procedures themselves.

 

and what happens if you have a flight FROM one of these no-weapon countries heading towards america or whatever? no-one except the terrorists would have weapons. the system is just impractical unless you are going to issue every passenger with free weapons upon entry in the plane.

 

You talk as if there's something wrong with that last bit, which I was actually going over in my head as I started with my response to earlier points.

 

and if you are doing that you're just inviting everyone to kill eachother. might as well stick to non-lethal weapons.

 

So you're saying giving all un-armed passengers and crew a can of mace is good enough to deter someone with an AK-47 and a machete? Uh-uh. That idea doesn't fly with me, so to speak.

 

the reason i say security checks is keep all the basic stuff like metal detectors... sniffer dogs... and pulling people aside who look suspicious. for starters you're still trying to keep out drugs and banned food. but getting rid of some stupid/obvious terrorists would save on a possible disaster in the air... i mean occassionally you DO get whole flights filled with children, old people, disabled and cowards... personally if a simple metal detector or pulling aside is going to save a couple of hundred lives i say it's worth it y'know...

 

How many security checks done on clean people are there to people whose plans to commit an act of terrorism were stopped by those same checks? Answer that question before saying that an hour or so of time out of every flight for security is worth it. I'd rather deal with mechanical- or weather-related delays than security. I'm sure at least 90% of those that have flown will agree with me.

 

i'm not gonna further argue the immigrant part there, really you've won that but i would like to point out that a fair amount of illegal immigrants really are escaping from danger and trying to find a better life and they are willing to work for it... surely these people deserve a fair chance. the whole green card system really isn't that fair. (at the moment anyway)

 

They deserve a chance to get away from their own corrupt country, I agree, but it does need to be done through the proper procedures or we won't know how much they were really willing to go through to accomplish that. Doing so also puts their home country in a slightly higher political standing as it shows their citizens are willing to play by our rules to come here, regardless of how corrupt that country actually is or what they plan to do when they get here.

 

anyway. a lot of the states do have similar rules and laws... but some have massively different ones. different people too... for instance when prop. 8 came into effect and cancelled out the marriage in cali, almost everyone in the state was in uproar (not to mention a fair amount of the whole country and some of the international community too...) but if say, texas (i know i'm picking on them. but they seem to have the worst stories for some reason o.O) or another southern heavily-christian state and a law got passed to make gay marriage LEGAL there, the uproar would be equally powerful but the other way round y'know?

 

Your point more demonstrates that the culture and religion of that state has more of a public influence than the laws its government puts into effect.

 

it all depends on the enviroment people have grown up in... the people around them, the state of living, the laws, levels of comfort and levels of safety... what scares me that in certain places where these enviromental laws are set to certain levels it results in people being VERY xenophobic of anything that isn't like them... it's depressing .-.

 

Tactfully put. But the lowest standard has to be set by somebody, if you'll pardon my coarseness in the point.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Fiesta