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Cygnus X-1

Religious beliefs

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Must I say it again.... :tired:

 

The Garden of Eden was NOT a litteral story. It was written to get a point across. One that apparently several of you missed.

 

Mankind choose to sin. Now were are doomed. Then Later on, GOD sent his only son to save us. He did his part, now we must do ours. We must live a life of realatively unbadness. And all that.

Well, it goes a bit beyond that Cygnus... it isn't just about being "relatively unbad." It's about accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which is just a vicarious payment for our sins. He was the perfect sacrifice that made the lesser sacrifices, and in fact all of the Old Covenant, of the Jews unnecessary. No matter how good we are, we still can never, ever lead a completely blameless life... that's why the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY to heaven is through Jesus Christ. That's it. Everything else is just window dressing.

 

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

 

So there ya have it.

 

 

And about the Garden of Eden... I'm with Cygnus there in thinking that it's just metaphor, like pretty much everything that was written at that point in history. So the immature jabs about them being naked and all that really have no place in this grown-up conversation, k Hypno?

 

And yes, Acerz, you just knew that I was lurking in the shadows, just waiting to come in here and pull a grammar/spelling crackdown :lol:

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And yes, Acerz, you just knew that I was lurking in the shadows, just waiting to come in here and pull a grammar/spelling crackdown :lol:

 

:haha: Good to have ya back mate. :P But just remember that while most of us can grasp the concept of spelling and grammer, we all stuff up from time to time. :P

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And yes, Acerz, you just knew that I was lurking in the shadows, just waiting to come in here and pull a grammar/spelling crackdown :lol:

 

:haha: Good to have ya back mate. :P But just remember that while most of us can grasp the concept of spelling and grammer, we all stuff up from time to time. :P

Oh but not me... and that's "grammar" :lol: :wink:

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Oh but not me... and that's "grammar"

 

Shouldn't that read as follows; and that's meant to say "grammar". sorry to seem pedantic, but if you want to be verbose with Acerz, I feel compelled to defend the poor git.

 

On the topic of religious beliefs, I have very little to say really. My agnostic perspective on life makes me sceptical of anything that I percieve as dogmatic, be it parents or religious tomes. The bibles too contradictory in my opinion, Doing a complete U-turn from 'burn all heathen' in the Old testament to 'repent sinners' in the new testament is a bit too much for my liking. I'm not saying I can't comprehend why people follow it, I just think its tripe.

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Oh but not me... and that's "grammar"

 

Oh jeez...here we go again...:roll: :wink: Looks like you're also going to have to deal with my New Zealand way of spelling and grammar (:wink:) as well. :P

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The bibles too contradictory in my opinion, Doing a complete U-turn from 'burn all heathen' in the Old testament to 'repent sinners' in the new testament is a bit too much for my liking. I'm not saying I can't comprehend why people follow it, I just think its tripe.

That is a very simplistic view of it... the fact that there's ANY consistency, especially when you consider the vast differences in time, language, and culture in the thousands of years through which the Bible was written, the continuity is absolutely unbelievable. You just summarized the entire Old and New Testaments in a couple words. To actually draw any points from that, let alone any absolute CONCLUSIONS, is just plain stupid.

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BWare, your book of god contradicts itself far too much for my liking. My generalisations are echoed by many agnositc people over the world and the best way to look at things is in their simplistic state. However, since you're being petty, I'll do you the same justice I'd do anyone who argues with me - I'll provide you with some evidence shall I.

 

 

Example in the Old Testament:

David slays Goliath after Moses has recieved a tablet with the commandment 'Thou Shall Not Kill on it'. Why would the bible include something that contradicts the rules at its core?

 

Example in the New Testament:

Jesus birthdate contradicts itself. According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This is impossible because Herod died in March of 4 BC and the census took place in 6 and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herod's death.

 

See, just a few minor examples of the inconsistencies of the bible. I can provide more and more until the cows come home and believe me Bware, I will if you want to argue this further.

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BWare, your book of god contradicts itself far too much for my liking. My generalisations are echoed by many agnositc people over the world and the best way to look at things is in their simplistic state. However, since you're being petty, I'll do you the same justice I'd do anyone who argues with me - I'll provide you with some evidence shall I.

 

 

Example in the Old Testament:

David slays Goliath after Moses has recieved a tablet with the commandment 'Thou Shall Not Kill on it'. Why would the bible include something that contradicts the rules at its core?

 

Example in the New Testament:

Jesus birthdate contradicts itself. According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This is impossible because Herod died in March of 4 BC and the census took place in 6 and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herod's death.

 

See, just a few minor examples of the inconsistencies of the bible. I can provide more and more until the cows come home and believe me Bware, I will if you want to argue this further.

Okay, now first of all, how was I being petty? :? Are you sure you're not being overly sensitive? I think you calling the Bible "your book of god" is a hell of a lot more petty. Secondly, those examples you gave are tired and flawed.

 

-You need to consider that a TRANSLATION occurred before going too deep with your analysis here. The 10 Commandments were not talking about killing, but about murder. Big difference. Killing someone in warfare is justifiable, especially when he was blaspheming God like Goliath was.

 

-Jesus' birth date is absolutely consistent. Even if there were an inaccuracy there, what does that even prove? This argument is as petty as they come. It doesn't do anything to negate the message of the Bible. Are you claiming that Jesus didn't exist? Sorry, but you fight a losing battle there. He was very clearly an actual human being that lived in ancient Rome. He is recorded in other histories and eye witness testimony... the fact that he existed isn't even open for debate.

 

 

Okay... so you've got a birthday and a mistranslation on your part to discredit the Bible. Seriously? That's the best you have? I'm sorry, but I think it takes more than these 2 petty little arguments to render the Bible... the most printed, reproduced, revered, and confirmed book in history... inaccurate. I really don't understand your irrational anger toward the Bible. Disagreement or even uncertainty I could at least understand, but geez. Now go ahead and copy and paste more of those garbage arguments from that website you googled... but don't expect me to be impressed.

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And so you know, BWare, I wasn't stating that Jesus did or didn't exist, I'm pointing out contradictions the Bible makes. Its that simple, it may be right in your eyes, but that doesn't stop it being contradictory in places. I've made no inferences about its morale value and you're trying to create further arguement out of nothing. I'd expect this from a lot of fundamentalists and other people, but not someone who knows that posting on somewhere like here about something as volatile as religion is asking for an arguement

 

I've stated elsewhere I believe nothing.Being agnostic, I've credited the bible as being contradictory, not inconsistent. I don't believe it, you can, thats your choice, just don't expect anyone else to follow it in the same manner that you do. this is not me being singularly spiteful to Christianity, I'd do the same to any religious text.

 

Finally, I provoked a long winded defensive reaction out of you BWare, my points been made, and I'll not argue it further, if you want to continue disproving it, you're just showing insecurities about your faith.

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And so you know, BWare, I wasn't stating that Jesus did or didn't exist, I'm pointing out contradictions the Bible makes. Its that simple, it may be right in your eyes, but that doesn't stop it being contradictory in places. I've made no inferences about its morale value and you're trying to create further arguement out of nothing. I'd expect this from a lot of fundamentalists and other people, but not someone who knows that posting on somewhere like here about something as volatile as religion is asking for an arguement

 

I've stated elsewhere I believe nothing.Being agnostic, I've credited the bible as being contradictory, not inconsistent. I don't believe it, you can, thats your choice, just don't expect anyone else to follow it in the same manner that you do. this is not me being singularly spiteful to Christianity, I'd do the same to any religious text.

 

Finally, I provoked a long winded defensive reaction out of you BWare, my points been made, and I'll not argue it further, if you want to continue disproving it, you're just showing insecurities about your faith.

That's just sad Mr_Lee_. I franly expected a bit better from you, but you simply can't rise to the occasion and defend you position. Your two measly arguments were easily demolished, and that's where you're leaving it?

 

Another thing- how is being "long-winded," as you said, an expression of insecurity in my faith? I would say that your shying away from an argument is a far greater expression of insecurity. And by the way... that was not long-winded. In fact, it took just a couple minutes. I write quickly.

 

The fact remains: You claimed the Bible was contradictory. When challenged, you gave 2 laughable arguments which were refuted. You then chose to hide behind your word "agnostic" and avoid any actual thinking.

 

"Its that simple, it may be right in your eyes, but that doesn't stop it being contradictory in places."

What places? This is still unsettled. Don't be a coward. You're facing a losing battle, but at least be man enough to fight it!

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Another thing- how is being "long-winded," as you said, an expression of insecurity in my faith?

 

It shows you need to defend something and you'll not be simplistic about doing so. I see that as a sign of insecurity, others see it as a sign of someone explaining themselves. Either way is appropriate and open to interpretation, much like the Bible.

 

I would say that your shying away from an argument is a far greater expression of insecurity.

 

Insecurity is not being confident in something. I'm confident in everything I say otherwise I wouldn't say it.

 

And by the way... that was not long-winded. In fact, it took just a couple minutes. I write quickly.

 

I gathered as much from your other posts around the forum. I didn't say speed of typing had anything to do with whether something was long winded or not did I?

 

The fact remains: You claimed the Bible was contradictory. When challenged, you gave 2 laughable arguments which were refuted. You then chose to hide behind your word "agnostic" and avoid any actual thinking.

 

Did you find my score on 'what religion suits you best test? I scored as Agnostic, meaning I choose to believe nothing. You quote me correctly as saying the bible is contradictory, but I chose to not make arguement over the fact that clearly believe what it says. I walked away, and left you to it. that makes me the bigger man here.

 

This is still unsettled. Don't be a coward. You're facing a losing battle, but at least be man enough to fight it!

 

This is a battle? I thought it was a debate that I finished in my last post. I don't think its smart sitting behind a keyboard trying to coax people into arguing with you. If someone believes in something, they will follow it regardless of what anyone else has to say or do. That makes the 'battle' pointless, and a pointless battle is a battle I will not fight. It also serves no point for me to continue from a debating purpose, I know your opinion will not be changed by anything you have to say, so I choose to not try and change it anymore. Thats not cowardice, as you put it, thats knowing when to quit. there is a large difference.

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It shows you need to defend something and you'll not be simplistic about doing so. I see that as a sign of insecurity, others see it as a sign of someone explaining themselves. Either way is appropriate and open to interpretation, much like the Bible.

You'd be a fool to be "simplistic" about a topic as broad and deep as this one. Your view of insecurity is flawed, and the whole relativity thing... I'm not really a big fan of that. There are definite absolutes in this universe.

 

I gave examples. And heres a site I googled just for you;

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/pau...radictions.html

 

I hope you find it to be an amusing read. I did.

The examples were both flawed and weak, and you're using Paul Carlson? :roll:

My point is that your claim that the Bible is inconsistent/inaccurate/whatever is extremely weak. And yes, you should respond to that. Either back it up or back down... don't just walk away.

 

This is a battle? I thought it was a debate that I finished in my last post. I don't think its smart sitting behind a keyboard trying to coax people into arguing with you. If someone believes in something, they will follow it regardless of what anyone else has to say or do. That makes the 'battle' pointless, and a pointless battle is a battle I will not fight. It also serves no point for me to continue from a debating purpose, I know your opinion will not be changed by anything you have to say, so I choose to not try and change it anymore. Thats not cowardice, as you put it, thats knowing when to quit. there is a large difference.

You FINISHED the DEBATE in the last post? Wow, that is really impressive :roll:. You did no such thing. At the most you gave your point of view, and backed it up so far with 2 faulty arguments and a link to a, well, frankly pretty weak but passionate article.

I apologize if my "battle" language was out of place, but it's how I see any conflict, and I am serious about this one... not insecure, but serious :P

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I'll respond in the healthiest way then BWare. I respect your opinion and its difference to mine, however weak you percieve mine to be, but I really don't feel the need to continue this with you anymore. Call it weakness if you like but I've had too many arguements with people over something as volatile, yet deep as religion to know neither os us is going to quit and the topic will just get locked when some people probably still have views on religion. argue with them if you want, my points been put out on view for all to see and you've provided your reasons against my arguement and I respect that.

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Woah!! :shock:

 

Calm down BWare, while I do admire your debates, you do push the boundaries of our rules. I don't mind a good debate (quite frankly the forums needs some) but we must understand one thing. And that thing is that you must not attempt to make people look small, and to look down on them, which despite your debate on the subject, is what you are really doing here.

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But you got to addmit. He's often time more right than wrong. (and no I am not talkign about his religios beliefs for all you skeptics and what not)

 

Now personally, I have no problem with anyone being a different religion. Here's what I despise. People pick one littel bitty thing and make into a huge argument over why thye are right and we are wrong, when they dont even get the whole story, they dont do research or back things up, they just jump to conclusions too dman quickly. God/Bob/Allah/The monkey's unlce gave us brains, now why dont we use them when trying to form an argument here hmm?

 

And I totally agree with BWare.

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God/Bob/Allah/The monkey's unlce gave us brains, now why dont we use them when trying to form an argument here hmm?

 

:haha: Or, as my 7th form Physics teacher would say:

 

"USE THE LITTLE GREY CELLS! That's what they're there for!"

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Woah!! :shock:

 

Calm down BWare, while I do admire your debates, you do push the boundaries of our rules. I don't mind a good debate (quite frankly the forums needs some) but we must understand one thing. And that thing is that you must not attempt to make people look small, and to look down on them, which despite your debate on the subject, is what you are really doing here.

Well hi there King! It's great to see you too!

 

Anyway... I am sincerely sorry if I was making Lee "look small," but honestly that was not my intention. I get very passionate about these things, and it does grind my nerves when someone is so obnoxious in attacking my beliefs. But I want an open and honest exchange of ideas, so, once again, it bothers me when cheap shots are taken and then the person just backs off.

 

Let me make one thing very clear: I don't look down on anyone on these forums (well, maybe the occasional new person with the horrible, horrible spelling and grammar :P), and I respect and listen to every opinion given. I am not some psycho fundamentalist who shuts his ears to every dissenting opinion. On the contrary, I want people to challenge what I say with the same vigor that I do with them, and if I'm proven wrong, I will change my point of view. It's how we learn folks! Don't lump me into a category and assume that I'm being high and mighty with my point of view, because that really isn't the case. Once again, I apologize if that's how I came across, and I will proof read my posts in the future to avoid that kind of thing.

 

Now personally, I have no problem with anyone being a different religion. Here's what I despise. People pick one littel bitty thing and make into a huge argument over why thye are right and we are wrong, when they dont even get the whole story, they dont do research or back things up, they just jump to conclusions too dman quickly. God/Bob/Allah/The monkey's unlce gave us brains, now why dont we use them when trying to form an argument here hmm?

You are absolutely right about that Cygnus. This whole debate is simply too important and too MASSIVE to nit pick the little things, or, as you said, jump to conclusions too damn quickly. And yes! Bob did give us that gray matter, so let's use it! :lol:

 

And I totally agree with BWare.

Yes! Confirmation! :D:P

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Guest Rabbit

Haha, I guess you have the upper hand... for now. :P

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Haha, I guess you have the upper hand... for now. :P

BWA HA HA... care to jump in Hypno? :wink:

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How about instead of useless stuff like "Guess you have the upper hand now...."

 

why dont we keep it going, eh ? :wink:

 

I have always stood by the majority of the Catholic Church's teachings and veiws. However, I like for faith and religion to be a littel more free than some would have it. Got nothing wrong wiht mass, except that its borring. Thats the problem I htink wiht people leaving hte Catholic church, or jsut ignoring it altogether. Its just not what it used to be. Henceforth we have a million "sub-cults" sprouting up everywhere sowing wild rumors and pickign at the little things that dont matter. For example, many people say that Catholics are bad because we cant eve quote directly from the Bible. Well I say htis: The Bible is not a history book. It is not meant for dirrect quoting, it is meant as a guide for us. It is not tha religion that matters, it is the faith that matters. If you establish your own rapot with your inner self, or God/Bob/Allah/monkey's uncle, then i think yo uare living a fine life. Now if its an imoral life, then you obviously havent achieved that Inner Vision yet, and you need to seek your own guidance. Whether that means Budhism, Aetheism, Catholicism, or whatever, go for it. You can only learn from your expiriences.

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Hmm... well here is where you and I part ways, Cygnus. While I believe that your lifestyle and all that are in fact very important, everything hinges on Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice. The rest, as I've said before, is just window dressing. If you actually accept the free gift of salvation, then it's a done deal, as paradoxically simple as that sounds. Any religion that doesn't lead you to Christ does you no good in my view. It's a personal relationship with him that will save you... the only possible way. The best we can muster with our lives is still imperfect garbage. The only way into heaven is through the sacrifice of the "perfect lamb," Jesus.

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I htink we can find Jesus by attaining balance within ourselves. Of course, a proper education in his sacrifice is very highly recomended, and in fact, is practically crucial, but if you can attain true happyness wiht your self, and I mean True, not wordly, then I believe that you have made a raport with your self and Jesus within you. After all, he is in all of us :D

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I htink we can find Jesus by attaining balance within ourselves. Of course, a proper education in his sacrifice is very highly recomended, and in fact, is practically crucial, but if you can attain true happyness wiht your self, and I mean True, not wordly, then I believe that you have made a raport with your self and Jesus within you. After all, he is in all of us :D

True 'nuf, but I still see it as a pretty black and white thing... you accept it or you don't. But this is, of course, handled on a very individual basis... and that's how "religion" rarely fits into it! :wink:

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Guest Rabbit
BWA HA HA... care to jump in Hypno? :wink:

 

Naw, I'm good. I don't know exactly what to say, to be honest, since my religion isn't anything like what we are talking about now.

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uhhhhh...

all this big words

You guys are giving me a BIG headache!

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