Darwin Vs Intelligent Design

[Saracen 16]

Last Thursday (26th January), In the UK, BBC program HORIZON came up with this interesting documentry program. The theory of evolution is under attack from a controversial new idea called intelligent design... An interesting concept, but seems extremely flawed. Part of the program can be viewed here: http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1138905920/A_War_On_Science

 

More information on this so-called Science can be viewed at the official site: http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/

 

What are your thoughts on the whole thing? Keep it clean here please....

[Tree 0]

Intelligent Design = Religion

Darwin = Science

 

Not possible to mix the two.

[Doctor Destiny 41]

I wouldn't say that, Tree... BWare might get all bitchy. >_>

 

Anywho, intelligent design is a load of crap and doesn't make sense. Life comes from slow development, not this "WHAM HERE WE ARE" crap. And let's be clear, this applies to intelligent life, not the universe itself.

[Acerz492 1]

They had a court case about this being taught in schools going on in the US not too long ago:

 

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/050926_ID_belief.html

 

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/05092...rwin_trial.html

 

Intelligent Design is, and always will be, a load of rubbish. :roll: Not only that, there are idiots out there who try and pass this belief of as a plausible theory. :roll: I think even BWare will agree here when I say there is a clear difference between a belief and a theory, and that Intelligent Design is nothing more than just a belief.

[Luk3us 63]

I have no problem with Intelligent Design and those who believe in it. As long as it is restricted from educational insituations... We don't need a whole generation growing up being taught it, sure if you want to find out go ahead, but yeah, not in a educational enviroment, it sends the wrong message.

[TheBlackOut 7]

Let people believe what they believe and teach both and not be bias. I will believe that God create the Earth, and let it evolve, knowing we would pop up later. Thats my theory. I don't give a wooden nickle about the two. I say let people learn and decide on their own, not be force fed it...

[Hans5849 0]

a load of crap

[TheBlackOut 7]

a load of crap

 

Wow, like to provide any detail? :roll:

[rEdaSbLood 1]

yea intelligent design as a whole is reallll dum soundin...

 

but im gona agree somewhat with TSBO.....i think god(s) may have/had a part in creation and evolution of life....

 

now when we think of god(s) though we think of superior beings...most of the time really physically similar to humans...

what if god is like the "force" in Star Wars?Or even half-way between the "force" and buddha....something like that

 

i mean we all aught to have a more open mind about spirituality/religion....i think it takes a life-time, or maybe just the end of one, to find that kind of truth...

[BWare 0]

Ugh.

Okay, now to address this individually....

An interesting concept, but seems extremely flawed.

How so?

Oh, and this isn't exactly a "controversial new topic." It's basically been around since, well, for about as long as MAN HAS EXISTED.

 

Intelligent Design = Religion

Darwin = Science

 

Not possible to mix the two.

Tree's "point" = idiocy

Would you like me to read off my litany of EVERY FATHER OF SCIENCE and the fact that they were ALL Christians? The history of science is ROOTED in religion.

Let's grow up a bit and tackle the actual question here without that idiotic stereotype, k Tree? :roll:

 

Anywho, intelligent design is a load of crap and doesn't make sense. Life comes from slow development, not this "WHAM HERE WE ARE" crap. And let's be clear, this applies to intelligent life, not the universe itself.

The position of intelligent design is NOT "wham here we are" :roll: It's an interpretation of evolutionary theory, which implies slow development.

Please... look into the position, actually work at understanding what it says, and then make your points. This idiotic "OMG R3LIG10N IZNT SC13NCE LOLZ!!!111" is really getting on my nerves.

 

Intelligent Design is, and always will be, a load of rubbish. Not only that, there are idiots out there who try and pass this belief of as a plausible theory. I think even BWare will agree here when I say there is a clear difference between a belief and a theory, and that Intelligent Design is nothing more than just a belief.

And you say this with what authority? To me, it seems pretty damn arrogant to dismiss the work of thousands of scientists with a single, misinformed sentence :roll:

Ugh. Again, let me explain that intelligent design is NOT religious, and it doesn't even require faith. It's a scientific point of view that what currently exists in the universe could not possibly come into being without some creative force of some kind. Frankly, I don't know how you could deny that, let alone call it now and forevermore a "load of rubbish" :roll:

 

I have no problem with Intelligent Design and those who believe in it. As long as it is restricted from educational insituations... We don't need a whole generation growing up being taught it, sure if you want to find out go ahead, but yeah, not in a educational enviroment, it sends the wrong message.

Better.... but again, you're misinformed on what Intelligent Dactually is. It absolutely needs to be in the educational institutions. Why are you folks so pro-indoctrination? This is nothing more than the idea that something out there precipitated our eventual existence.

 

Let people believe what they believe and teach both and not be bias.

YES.

 

yea intelligent design as a whole is reallll dum soundin...

Yes... "reallll dum soundin" :lol:

 

now when we think of god(s) though we think of superior beings...most of the time really physically similar to humans...

what if god is like the "force" in Star Wars?Or even half-way between the "force" and buddha....something like that

 

i mean we all aught to have a more open mind about spirituality/religion....i think it takes a life-time, or maybe just the end of one, to find that kind of truth...

Okay, cool. I basically agree with you here dude. I ask for open-mindedness here as well :wink:

 

 

 

 

Ugh.

Okay, now you folks are horribly misinformed on this issue. Let me clear this up... Intelligent design is NOT religion, and it is, in fact, science. Frankly, the subject of this thread is very flawed, because intelligent design is an interpretation of Darwin's theory. All it says is that, based on the sheer level of complexity in the universe, there is clear evidence of a creative force of some sort.

 

Looking at the universe, you are forced to conclude one of two things: Either the universe came into being through complete random chance, or something put it here. Banishing one of those 2 general, NON-RELIGIOUS points of view from the debate is incredibly stupid, and even criminally negligent. Teaching only the one perspective is indoctrination by its very definition.

[Acerz492 1]

And you say this with what authority? To me, it seems pretty damn arrogant to dismiss the work of thousands of scientists with a single, misinformed sentence :roll:

Ugh. Again, let me explain that intelligent design is NOT religious, and it doesn't even require faith. It's a scientific point of view that what currently exists in the universe could not possibly come into being without some creative force of some kind. Frankly, I don't know how you could deny that, let alone call it now and forevermore a "load of rubbish" :roll:

 

I never said it was religion. I only said it was a belief, nothing more mate. It's an extremly flawed scientific view. Let me quote an article, because if I tried to explain it myself I'll probably end up insulting you or something:

 

But what exactly is a scientific theory? Is ID a theory? Isn't evolution only a theory? If both ID and evolution are scientific theories, why should one be taught and not the other?

 

A large part of the confusion stems from the fact that there is a big difference between how the word "theory" is used in science and how it is used in ordinary conversation. A hunch, conjecture or an educated guess can become a hypothesis. But a theory is much more.

 

In science, a theory is an explanation that binds together various experimentally tested hypotheses to explain some fundamental aspect of nature. For an idea to qualify as a scientific theory, it must be established on the basis of a wide variety of scientific evidence. Its claims must be testable and it must propose experiments that can be replicated by other scientists. (You should know this mate)

 

"[Evolution is] a theory in a special philosophical sense of science, but in terms of ordinary laymen's use of language, it's a fact," said Richard Dawkins, a biologist from Oxford University, in a recent radio interview. "Evolution is a fact in the same sense that it's a fact that the Earth is round and not flat, [that] the Earth goes round the Sun. Both those are also theories, but they're theories that have never been disproved and never will be disproved."

 

On Earth, release an apple and it will fall towards the planet. This is a fact, and the theory that explains this phenomenon is the current theory of gravity. Similarly, all living organisms share a common ancestry. This is a fact, supported not only by the visible similarities in body structures among organisms, but more powerfully, by evidence from genetics. The theory that best explains these similarities is evolution.

 

ID, on the other hand, is not a theory. It is a hypothesis, but it is not even a scientific hypothesis because there is no way to experimentally verify its central claim that a Supreme Being intervened in the creation of life on Earth.

 

Like religion, ID is a belief And while many people take their religion as fact, science would go nowhere if it operated that way. Many of the great discoveries—from disease cures to advanced technologies and trips to the Moon—would never have been possible without the rigorous scientific process that carefully distinguishes between belief and testable fact.

 

You ask me on what authority I say this with? What exactly do you mean by that? Do I have to have some sort of authority to say my piece now or something? :roll: Jeez..

 

You call me arrogant, I'm not. All I said was that it's not a plausible scientific theory. And, again, being a scientist yourself (or at least a student in the field of science), you should know the difference between a belief and a theory. I'm only trying to point this out mate, I never said it was religion.

[GeneralZ 0]

lets see:

 

Evolution: Based on scientific observation by Darwin

Intelligent Design: Based on Bible

 

how can it not be religious? ID is saying god created the world and everything in it like humans. sounds like a load of rubbish when u've got remains of pre-human species like homo erectus and even further back. dinoaurs?

 

 

i say god didnt create the world. he started the big bang or sumthing and let everything grow by itself.....or god doesnt exist and religion is just a thing to satisfy the spiritual needs of human beings.

[TheBlackOut 7]

Why does it matter how the **** we were created? I don't give a damn if aliens put us here, I really just care about where I am heading...

[GeneralZ 0]

to WWIII?? :lol:

[TheBlackOut 7]

to WWIII?? :lol:

 

You laugh at that idea? :roll:

[rEdaSbLood 1]

lol o man one heated topic...who saw it comin :lol: :roll:

 

well i sorta see what BWare is saying...that ID could in a way be translated as God(s) being (through science) the force responsible for existing life and matter.....

 

As i recall there has not been any physical evidence (with FEW exceptions) of god(s) being real...thats where faith comes in....

 

this is a very complicated topic....can be looked at a million different ways

 

so as i said before and BWare ironically agreed with me on...that we should have an open mind about this because...i highly doubt in our life-time that we will find out if religion is true or not....

 

right now it may seem that religion is stupid....but did anyone ever see "Contact"?...there was a part in it where a man asked the main character if she believed in God..and she said its scientifically wrong to...then he replied asking "so you think the people that believe in, have believed in, faught and died for...a god........where delusional????""

 

who knows....i mean if you ask me we should all provide interesting opinions and facts about this subject.....but make NO claims....because this is practically a very subjective and relative subject....

 

PS...what one interprets as god(s) can be different compared to how someone else does

[Alphabear 11]

i dont really see the possibility of ww3 happening any time soon. What i think will happen though are regionalised wars i.e. Australia/Indonesia, India/Pakistan, Israel/ME etc.

[Acerz492 1]

to WWIII?? :lol:

 

i dont really see the possibility of ww3 happening any time soon. What i think will happen though are regionalised wars i.e. Australia/Indonesia, India/Pakistan, Israel/ME etc.

 

>_> Guys, the topic at hand, please. No-one cares about WWIII, m'kay?

[GeneralZ 0]

it was a joke..... :roll:

[Acerz492 1]

I know, but it's irrelevent to the topic.

 

What're your thoughts on Intelligent Design, Z?

[BWare 0]

NOTE: I lost my cable modem for the last couple days, so this response is a bit old.... but here it is anyway.

 

Acerz dude... yes, I understand that article and its points. They are good, but keep in mind that it's just playing semantics. Let me clean my point up for you a bit then. Intelligent Design is not unscientific, nor is it religious or irrational or even based on the Bible.

That said, let's look at the "scientific" view of the origins of the universe. The anti-theistic view necessitates that, essentially, the impossible happened. Mind-boggling complexity and order came from absolute chaos without any outside effort. This view is extremely unscientific! It flies in the face of even the most basic laws of science. Just look up the second law of thermodynamics. This central law states that the universe is moving inevitably from order to disorder. It's called the law of entropy. The universe is slowly sliding to chaotic entropy, and only active, creative actions can stop the trend. I ask you how this rule of nature was so profoundly broken when the universe and life spontaneously assembled! It just doesn't make sense.

 

So to sum things up, evolution is indeed a fact. The origins of life and the universe, however, are shrouded in mystery and, as that piece you cited points out, impossible to prove (at least now) through scientific means. Therefore, anything you think about where the universe and life came from is by definition a belief. Whether you believe that God created us all or that nature popped randomly into place, both are unscientific, and both are beliefs. So... would you people who believe in the latter view STOP calling the legitimate opposing viewpoint "a load of rubbish?" You don't have the authority to do that.

 

lets see:

 

Evolution: Based on scientific observation by Darwin

Intelligent Design: Based on Bible

How... many... freaking times.... do I need to explain this???

 

ID is NOT religion, it is NOT based on faith, and it is NOT based on the Bible! It of course can affirm those things and give them some sceintific credence (scares you, doesn't it? :wink:), but the view itself is NOT religious and perfectly sound scientifically.

 

how can it not be religious? ID is saying god created the world and everything in it like humans.

Again, I ask those here who disagree to do a little homework... just a little... so I don't have to keep going back over these same basic points. ID does not speak of God specifically. It's extremely general. It only states that the level of complexity in the universe is impossible to explain without a creative force of some kind. It has nothing to do with the Bible or religion.

 

sounds like a load of rubbish when u've got remains of pre-human species like homo erectus and even further back. dinoaurs?

Now you're arguing evolution. ID makes allowences for those fossils (though the evidence supporting those early human remains are MUCH shakier than you presume...)

 

 

i say god didnt create the world. he started the big bang or sumthing and let everything grow by itself.....

That idea works perfectly with Intelligent Design. It's called desim... the belief that God created the world but now isn't actively involved in it (I think it's a load of crap, but that's just me :wink:).

 

....or god doesnt exist and religion is just a thing to satisfy the spiritual needs of human beings.

Then I ask you... what on earth gives human beings "spiritual needs?" Why would that desire for the spiritual and eternal evolve? I'm a firm believer of evolution in its strictest sense, of course, but it falls FAR short of explaining the existence of life or the deeper aspects of human nature.

[rEdaSbLood 1]

there are scientific and religious ways to explain everything...what we classify as god and what we classify as "spiritual" is just something that the human mind has made up....it's man made...so it could just exist only in our understanding...

 

did you guys ever watch hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy....movies like that ( the most important part when the whale and pot of flowers pop up) provide questions that are the MOST hard to answer...but provide insight about the unknown not into it....

 

for instance...in MIB...our galaxy was a marble that aliens played with...there is a name for a theory like that...because solar systems resemble atoms.....

 

Science as well as religion/spirituality is the closest thing to the natural truth that humans can get...they are efforts to try and understand our environment...its human nature to feel the need to know...

 

i remember one time i was either on mushrooms or weed...i got this idea that WHAT IF the universe is just something like a game for a higher(or lower) being...and the whole multiple universes (string theory even) could be universes for different people...what if heaven is getting your own universe...??? trippy aint it

 

look at the matrix...i mean that could totally be true.......

 

so..i have come to the conclusion that everyone has their own general truth..about life and existence...and i aint bias to either ID or science....i like to keep opptions open...and leave that decision for later in life when i learn more....

[BWare 0]

i dont really see the possibility of ww3 happening any time soon. What i think will happen though are regionalised wars i.e. Australia/Indonesia, India/Pakistan, Israel/ME etc.

Holy cow dude... it has already begun, and we're just one more terrorist attack away from it completely exploding. The fact that so many people can't even see it is truly frightening to me :shock:

 

@redasblood- Dude, your thinking is all over the place, and clouded beyond all hope. This is just one of the many pitfalls of drug abuse... it doesn't give you insight. Only through training, research, and real world understanding (you know, WORK) can you gain that. Drugs only make certain thoughts seem more profound than others, or give you ideas that seem amazing but are really just silly and groundless. That's because all those drugs are doing is SCREWING WITH YOUR BRAIN CHEMISTRY. Jabbing at someone's exposed brain can cause similar effects. All it means is that something's going wrong. You don't beat a computer with a stick to make it run faster :roll:

 

Anyway... more specifically regarding your previous points, you still maintained a separation between Intelligent Design and science.

Do I really... seriously... need to cover this again? Please dude, read, process, then respond. You also push the relativist idea by saying that we all have our own "personal truths." This is so ridiculous that it's hardly worth addressing. Heck, the only backing you gave to your rambling thoughts were movies! You also defined things that are spiritual as made up by man. That's a pretty big leap there, as that is still a hotly debated issue. There is pretty widespread consensus that there is in fact something to the spiritual nature of humans beyond things and religions made up by man.

[TheBlackOut 7]

Yah, I don't see how people can't see WWIII knocking right on our door. Iran with nukes and a lot of nations against that(Isreal of course ) also Russia tied in with that. Then China want Taiwan back and the U.S. backing them up. (China said it will declare war on U.S. if it interferes... Also North Korea their allies yes?) I wish we never got into the Middle East and just let them kill each other off...

 

One thing I don't see is the use of nukes. (Maybe by the Middle Eastern countries but not by us nor China.)

ReDaS, using Hitch Hiker's guide as a referance?

[rEdaSbLood 1]

ok i didnt separate science and ID...my first post in this topic said that ID is connected to science...

 

second...so your sayin in my previous post none of those ideas are fathomable? are you saying they are impossible? because we all know (i shouldnt say this it will start a fire) nothing is impossible...expect the unexpected

 

now how could you guys laugh at the fact that i used movies to provide examples of what could possibly be the nature of the known universe...movies are not jokes...well comedic ones are...but there is alot of creativity and inspiration in movies...even fictional ones...

 

ok now your saying that drugs makes some ideas look more profound.....EDIT:well some people are aware of this and know how to control and maintain their idea of profundity...i just said that about when i was on shrooms/weed because its just an idea....

 

all these ideas ive been throwing in the air....with the movie examples....are not just science...they are somewhat ID...incorporating spirituality with science and unpredictability..and creativity

 

so BWare says that the ideas i used are stupid and unscienctific W/E u said...well then that makes religion...and in turn ID stupid....

 

my ideas arent clouded and scattered...they are open...which is in a way incomplete/partial....but like i said a couple of times...i like having an open mind esp. about metaphysical ideas...and that means not making any fully constructed claims...

 

and i have only taken drugs in moderation...so my mind wasnt that wrecked when i came up with that universal idea...

 

when i said we all have our own personal truths...did you know what i meant? did you ever take philosophy? when i said that i meant everyone has their opinion about the universe and their own philosophy...plus i said ABOUT LIFE AND EXISTANCE.....basically could be tranlated as beliefs...stop disecting my friken statements...they are more simple and general than they seem

 

when i said spirituality and all that could only be made up by man...did you read the word COULD...i was just giving out an idea...

 

you agreed with me earlier in this topic that we should have an open mind about it.....that means considering more than we think to be true...not dismissing something because it sounds far-fetched...

 

i find it sad that you laugh and judge creativity...even cinematic