Communism Discussion

[Alphabear 11]

Cygnus just because a political system isnt called "democratic" does not mean that it is not a dictatorship. Were monarchies dictatorships? And yet a monarchy is different to a military dictatorship

 

name them, and gives reliable sources.

 

http://www.pathfinder.com/Asiaweek/97/1219/nat3.html

 

http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/85187.htm

[BWare 0]

Alphabear, what's your deal dude? Seriously!

 

Are you going to actually come out and MAKE A POINT, or are you going to keep making little jabs at capitalism and little tiny points in defense of China, without putting your neck out and making a stand? Where do you stand? Do you have the courage to explain where and why? Come on dude. Your point about the mock "democratic" elections in China does little to address the fact that governments NEVER relinquish power voluntarily. That often requires a bloody revolution, or extreme acts of idealistic selflessness from SINGLE people... and this has happened maybe a handful of times.

 

Oh, and you failed completely to address Cygnus' great point about private, democratic elections REQUIRING free market capitalism and private money. Doesn't the idea of free markets, private money, and ownership kinda, you know, fly in the face of communism? Just a thought.

[Alphabear 11]

Bware i have raised a point in almost all of my posts and when i didnt i was replying to a point someone else had made. Maybe you should debate the topic insted of attacking me. It makes it look like you are getting desperate

[Azrael 0]

Oh, well, topics like this often get locked... Maybe this one will last a bit longer, don't you guys think?

[BWare 0]

Bware i have raised a point in almost all of my posts and when i didnt i was replying to a point someone else had made. Maybe you should debate the topic insted of attacking me. It makes it look like you are getting desperate

You're being a wuss. It's starting to bother me.

 

Come out, make a point, and quit playing footsy with the issue at hand. Are you pro-communism or pro-capitalism? You've done nothing but attack capitalism and promote the ideals of communism, and then you resent it when we say that you're pro-communism. Grow a spine, make a point, and let's get on with it.

 

Oh, and why would I get "desperate"? You sure aren't gaining any ground here. I'm nothing but annoyed.

[F15pilotX 4]

Cygnus just because a political system isnt called "democratic" does not mean that it is not a dictatorship. Were monarchies dictatorships? And yet a monarchy is different to a military dictatorship

 

name them, and gives reliable sources.

 

http://www.pathfinder.com/Asiaweek/97/1219/nat3.html

 

http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/85187.htm

The first source (from Hong Kong) is reliable, BUT, Hong Kong still has some different laws, leftovers of British rule :wink: the second claims the American government establishes dictatorships :lol: :roll: so needless to say, it's not very reliable :wink:

 

@BWare, don't call him names, I want this topic to last. Just make your point, don't attack him :wink:

[Alphabear 11]

Bware i have raised a point in almost all of my posts and when i didnt i was replying to a point someone else had made. Maybe you should debate the topic insted of attacking me. It makes it look like you are getting desperate

You're being a wuss. It's starting to bother me.

 

Come out, make a point, and quit playing footsy with the issue at hand. Are you pro-communism or pro-capitalism? You've done nothing but attack capitalism and promote the ideals of communism, and then you resent it when we say that you're pro-communism. Grow a spine, make a point, and let's get on with it.

 

Oh, and why would I get "desperate"? You sure aren't gaining any ground here. I'm nothing but annoyed.

 

Ever thought that i see good in both systems and that i may be just balancing the argument to show both sides of the story and provide an alternate point of view? The world isnt black and white Bware

[Cygnus X-1 12]

True, but it doest have a lot of room for those who refuse to get off the fence either....

 

You cant sit there and attack capitalism and yet still reap the benefits of it in rl without wondering about that. The term "elections" doesnt mean a whole lot when the people arent actually free to state anything against anyone else, because they're all "pro-communist" right? SO the point of "elections" is nullified. They are just using it so on paper (and to those delinquients who belive the media) that China is "getting better" when in reality, the people do not have a choice in the matter. If they did, then your "true communist" state ceased to exist before its inception.

[Alphabear 11]

did i refuse to get off the fence? i just stated that i see good in both systems, i never indicated that i am undecided

[Cygnus X-1 12]

In effect, by your actions (ie blaming problems on capitalism, pointing out hte good of communism, but resenting when BWare labeled you as pro commy) you did refuse to get off the fence.

 

I just dont see why, if you were a staunch supporter of capitalism (you grew up with it, and look at your life. Pretty sweet, eh?) why you would put forth points attempting to defend communism as a better system....

[GeneralZ 0]

whoa...this topic is fast growing.....

 

back to an earlier attack on me....

 

yes i can pass for native chinese pretty easy. in fact, many times, people have talked to me casually like a native. my accent isnt the best, but its acceptable enough....and that i can speak the local dialect, shanghaihenese as well as mandarin also helps a lot.

 

ra2 is banned in china? i know all the game sellers ahve it and its pretty popular. but C&C Generals/Zero Hour a definitely banned. all the gamers i encountered never heard of it. all the stores and street peddlets didnt have 1 copy. apparently the chinese government doesnt like gamers using fuel air bombs on redguards and tankhunter....

 

recent news....famous defence lawyer is arrested under trumped up false charges of theft. detained by police severael times etc... they're doing it cause they dont want him defending the rights of ordinary people. they dont like people suing the government for the bad things they do. china has a consitution. the communist party doesnt. also in recent news, they demolished a almost completed church because it was not registered and accepted by the government...even though the chinse constitution allows to right to practice religion. just look at the catholics in china. china wont even allow vatican control, instead using "State approved bishops" so they can keep controlling the catholics. and i'm not even catholic, i'm presbyterian so dont accuse me of favoring any side. (except the capitaism and the US CONSTUTITION WHICH GIVES REAL FREEDOM)

 

if all the countries in th world accepted communism and stopped having civil wars, than they would be successful. see all these countries doing poorely? do they have capitalism? no instead they have civil wars or warlords or islamic mullahs running complete control over things.

 

http://www.pathfinder.com/Asiaweek/97/1219/nat3.html

 

http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/85187.htm

 

oh boy...using material from pro-chinese propaganda sources. very reliable stuff :roll: :roll: :roll:

[BWare 0]

did i refuse to get off the fence? i just stated that i see good in both systems, i never indicated that i am undecided

How the hell can you see "good" in both?? What "good" has communism ever produced? In this century, where both systems have had a good run, communism has done nothing but collapse, yield massive depressions, and lead to some of the worst attrocities in human history, leaving millions upon millions murdered (in the name of equality, no less). You're LIVING the capitalist lifestyle, and frankly I don't think you have much room for complaining or supporting the antithesis of what gives you your current lifestyle.

 

You simply can't defend communism AND capitalism! They are polar opposites, and are in fact mutually exclusive! You can't be a little of both! In this case, it IS black and white. Get that through your head- it's important. This is where relativism gets obnoxious people- it's just so damn intellectually dishonest.

 

 

Sorry about the ad hominum attacks that I'm stooping to, but this fence riding has really gotten on my nerves. The legitimate intellects here are having an interesting discussion, and alpha is taking pot shots form the corner. I feel compelled to call him out. If you want to discuss it, put it out on the table! What do you believe, and why? You've just been throwing wrenches (tiny ones) into the gears as the conversation moves forward. Knock it off or jump in.

 

 

Oh, and well said GeneralZ. Good stuff from someone with some good credibility :wink:

[Alphabear 11]

Heres where it looks like its you who are getting desperate. We have already established that the so called communist nations of the 20th centurary were not communist yet you seem to be holding tightly onto the argument that the communist nations failed. Your calling yourself a legitimite intelect here and claiming i am not when you arnt willing to accept that there is a difference between comunism and the governments that proclaimed themselves communist to receive aid from the soviet union (who wasnt communist either and never was).

 

And in response to your statment about me having no credibility. What exactly do you want here? You obviously wont trust the UN, who in my opinion is one of the most truseworth sources in the world. Maybe if Fox news or some other media station reports it you will trust them. May i ask Bware if you are going to criticize me for not providing trustworthy sources (il try and get some from Fox next time ok) maybe you should provide some insted of just proclaiming what you believe to be fact.

[Cygnus X-1 12]

You dont need a trustworthy news source to make a staement about history that has already been written.

 

Lets assume that what you say is true about there having been zero 'true communist' nations in the 20th century...why is that? If "true communism" really is "better" then why does no one ever put it into practice? Hmm I wonder....why must they resort to "other" communism if the "true" way is the best....o wait a minute here. I smell something fishy...ah there it is. THEY DIDNT THINK IT WOULD WORK. Now way is that....no freedoms....a leash on your income....a tyrannical government with "elections".....well thats enough reasons for me. Now for you, who have grown up in a capitalist society all your life, enjoy the freedom to work where you will, you have internet, clean water, electricity, phone, you go to the school of your choice, you vote for who you want, you watch TV when you want, you read what you want...you have no reason to complain. Thats like winning the lotery and complaining that several million $ isnt enough.

[Azrael 0]

Point proven, Alphabear. There is a true communist in the 20th century, namely North Korea, while Cuba is now slightly capitalist because of it's medecine/pharmaceutical industries... Talking about tyrannical governments with elections, that's Philippines during Marcos's time... He had a snap election, even though he cheated still and was still in extreme contro, of the nation...

[Doctor Destiny 41]

How the hell can you see "good" in both??

There's some good in Communism if you look for it. The system itself is pretty good but has 2 major flaws that prevent large-scale usage. I'd say for tribal communities or something similar, communistic principles would work fine.

 

You simply can't defend communism AND capitalism!

Why the hell not? It's not relativist to see the light, so to speak, in both systems. You have to consider when each system would be best applied. Capitalism works great on the large-scale, works with human nature and leads to greater wealth. I agree with this but a small communistic society of relatively few would work better so no one's left behind or left out in the cold because of greed.

However, I fear I'm talking to a brick wall...

 

 

ad hominum

ad hominem... GET IT RIGHT! [/grammar nazi]

[Cygnus X-1 12]

Good point about the small community thing, however, the same flaw still exists with it. Should someone get greedy/lazy, there the system fails. One person doesnt see the need to work harder because they get the same out of it. Then 2 people see it. Then 20. Then your factory/farm/whatever fails. The end.

 

Or somethign along those lines. Now assuming you could keep it working for more than a generation, that problem would be mostly irradicated due to the edumucation of growing up and living within that society.

 

However...with todays bustle, hype, technology, and all of that, no society is an island anymore. We all work and help fuel a global economy that cannot exist on communism. In fact, it was built upon capitalism.

[BWare 0]

We have already established that the so called communist nations of the 20th centurary were not communist yet you seem to be holding tightly onto the argument that the communist nations failed.

They did. What the hell else WOULD you call them?? If you're going to go this route, then I'll just throw out that any capitalist country you object to isn't "true capitalist." I've been mocking your idea of "true communism" as opposed to communism in the REAL world for some time, but you haven't yet caught on. You have absolutely NOT established that there haven't been communist nations in the 20th century. You'd be an idiot to make that claim.

 

Your calling yourself a legitimite intelect here and claiming i am not

A "legitimate" intelect wouldn't mistake "you're" with "your" :roll:

And tell me this- WHEN did I say anything positive about myself, besides flatly stating what I've studied? I make a point of not puffing my chest out. That kind of thing is for insecure losers.

 

And in response to your statment about me having no credibility. What exactly do you want here? You obviously wont trust the UN, who in my opinion is one of the most truseworth sources in the world.

One of the most trustworthy sources in the world? Are you kidding me?? The UN is weak, ineffective, useless, and HORRIBLY corrupt. If you love them so much, then would you care to explain to me how the UN Oil for Food scandal happened (the BIGGEST scandal in history, at the expense of the Iraqi people)? Or how about the worldwide instances of rape and abuse that happen when the little blue hats gain some power in third world countries? Or maybe you'd care to tell me how you make sense of their rampant anti-Semetism and anti-Americanism?

 

Maybe if Fox news or some other media station reports it you will trust them. May i ask Bware if you are going to criticize me for not providing trustworthy sources (il try and get some from Fox next time ok) maybe you should provide some insted of just proclaiming what you believe to be fact.

:lol: It is so fashionable and so dense for people like you to take jabs at Fox News. American media is a horrible mess. Fox entered the market to provide an alternative to the dinosaur mainstream media... and it has been a roaring success. If you can point out -anything- specifically that they've done to prove themselves untrustworthy to you, then go ahead and say it. Otherwise shut up with that typical, baseless, idiotic MTV robot attack. That gets really old really fast.

 

Point proven, Alphabear.

 

 

There's some good in Communism if you look for it. The system itself is pretty good but has 2 major flaws that prevent large-scale usage. I'd say for tribal communities or something similar, communistic principles would work fine.

Possibly, but as I've said earlier, every time it's been tried officially, even and especially on a small scale, it ends in disaster. With no incentive for work, society will collapse even in this case. Unless it's as small as a FAMILY, where the members are known intimately, it can't possibly work for an extended amount of time.... unless you have a LOT of money and energy to burn.

 

I agree with this but a small communistic society of relatively few would work better so no one's left behind or left out in the cold because of greed.

Or, on the LARGE scale, which is where it really matters, personal morality and respect for human life (all conservative ideals :wink:) will hold up that end, keeping nobody left out in the cold without help. In a worst case scenario, even in this big, evil, capitalist country of ours (the USA), you can still find help at almost every turn. Our society celebrates people who give to charity and help out the less fortunate. Where's the big, impersonal, evil capitalist juggernaut that runs on the tears of the poor that I keep hearing about?

 

ad hominem... GET IT RIGHT!

NOOOOOO!!!! Oh man, those freaking biology terms are getting to my head. It's all Latin! Everything ends in "um"! My apologies on the misspelling of "ad hominem". I've.... *sniff* I've FAILED you!!

 

However...with todays bustle, hype, technology, and all of that, no society is an island anymore. We all work and help fuel a global economy that cannot exist on communism. In fact, it was built upon capitalism.

And there's the trump card. Good point there dude. End of discussion

[Doctor Destiny 41]

Good point about the small community thing, however, the same flaw still exists with it. Should someone get greedy/lazy, there the system fails. One person doesnt see the need to work harder because they get the same out of it. Then 2 people see it. Then 20. Then your factory/farm/whatever fails. The end.

I realize the flaws but in smaller groups, people tend to work together more effectively, which is why mass-scale Communism will always fail. Maybe it's just me dreaming again... in any case, I do believe that Communism could be practically applied in some way.

 

Possibly, but as I've said earlier, every time it's been tried officially, even and especially on a small scale, it ends in disaster. With no incentive for work, society will collapse even in this case. Unless it's as small as a FAMILY, where the members are known intimately, it can't possibly work for an extended amount of time.... unless you have a LOT of money and energy to burn.

Disaster... that might be a step too far. Globally, yes, I would agree... however, a smaller-scale society has not existed that I know of. It's always an entire nation that goes in and comes out of it jolly well ****ed.

 

I wouldn't say it would have to be a family but that's probably the best starting point. The key to making hard work attractive is some sort of incentive, and that is not exclusive to capitalism.

[BWare 0]

I realize the flaws but in smaller groups, people tend to work together more effectively, which is why mass-scale Communism will always fail. Maybe it's just me dreaming again... in any case, I do believe that Communism could be practically applied in some way.

No question. Take any family, for instance. There is a kind of communal living- the dad works, and the kids suck up resources . They share the food, ownership of the house, TV, and when the time comes, cars. It definitely works great at that level- you wouldn't make the 5 year old mow the lawn in order to earn his dinner! Everyone is happy (at least, ideally :wink:).

 

When this system grows to the size of a community, consisting of many families, it begins to show cracks in its facade. Everything eventually falls apart. Communes simply do NOT endure.

 

Disaster... that might be a step too far. Globally, yes, I would agree... however, a smaller-scale society has not existed that I know of.

There have been hundreds if not thousands. A classic example is the Jamestown settlement in early colonial America. The were following communist-esque ideas early on (a common silo, communal farming, shared labor, no specific ownership, etc). It wasn't long before the silo was empty and they were starving to death. It took John Smith, the guy famous for the whole Pocahontas thing, to whip them into shape. He instituted a policy that said that if you don't work, you don't eat. Period. Jamestown is now one of North America's most enduring settlements.

 

It's always an entire nation that goes in and comes out of it jolly well f*****.

Haha, no question there! I think the MAIN problem, at least in its introduction, is that EVERYONE must be of like mind. There's absolutely no room for dissension.... but we all know that in a country, SOMEONE out there will object to just about everything. So what do you do with them? The only answer, for TRUE communism (:roll:), is to silence them through imprisonment or death. "True" communists out there, could you explain to me another possible answer? I sure can't think of one, and neither could the many communist nations of the 20th century. Remember the price tag for their experiment into communism- tens of millions dead.

 

I wouldn't say it would have to be a family but that's probably the best starting point. The key to making hard work attractive is some sort of incentive, and that is not exclusive to capitalism.

That's true... incentives can be set up. However, the only really lasting, consistent, universal incentive is the one provided by capitalism. The other incentives would be relegated to beaurocracies or other systems, which just can't adapt fast enough to the market. Incentive systems HAVE been used to fix that flaw in communism (making them UNtrue communists, right?), but they just don't last very long. The market is very demanding. Capitalism USES that market to dole out the rewards! They're one and the same, and again, if I may cite the historical record, it works pretty nicely :wink:

[Doctor Destiny 41]

Honestly, I don't think "true" communism has ever been applied. Most of the so-called Communist countries turn out more like a socialist dictatorship. In "true" communism, afaik, there is no central power.

 

Besides, what in the **** is "true Communism"? >_>

[Acerz492 1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

 

Wikipedia, lawl.

[F15pilotX 4]

so, it has apparantly not been (And I doubt it ever will)

[Cygnus X-1 12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

 

Wikipedia, lawl.

 

nice of you to join us out of the netherworlds of MIT (or wherever you've been)

[BWare 0]

Acerz with the Wikipedia link! SWISH!!

 

Where ya been dude?

 

 

But yeah, "true, pure communism" has never been applied. Neither has pure democracy. Neither has pure capitalism. Neither has a pure monarchy. Neither has ANY specific system. When it comes to applying it, there are always countless variables. It never works in real life like it should on paper. Communism DEMANDS that it does... but, of course, complex reality stands in the way.

 

That said, I think it's PERFECTLY fair to cite Russia, Cuba, China, etc, as legitimately communist countries. We in the USA have some goverment regulation in our economy, but we still call ourselves "true" capitalists, right?