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LIXINYU

Communism Discussion

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First off, leftists in the US and communists anywhere, while very similar, are yet still different.

 

Second off, circular logic has a way of leaving its users stuck in endless circles of debate, getting nowhere. Hence the name. And the inherent uselessness of it.

 

Third off, why the hell would any of you still support communism after looking at what it has done to humans across the globe. You cannot argue with the facts, they are here, solid, and you cannot change them. Communism works on paper yes, so it should work in reality, except FOR ONE FRIGGIN GLARRING WEAKNESS!!!! PEOPLE ARE GREEDY!!!! Now in Capitialism, you can get wealthy by being greedy. Its also quite hard to pull off without inquries and such. In capitalism, you earn moeny based on the effort and time put into work. ie the harder you work, the more you earn. Its really quite simple, cause and effect. You live by cause and affect laws everyday, whether its the government, physics, economy, or human actions, that is how the world is. You cannot argue against reality, and reality has shown un only several thousand times that communism does not work. Notice how capitalistic nations are the ones thriving, and how capitalistic nations are the one harboring refugees from Communist run states, and notice how capitalistic economic policies are being adopted by Communist states across the globe. Doesn't that tell you anything? Huh? Or does your government not allow you to think for yourself?

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Ooooohhhhh.... man that's scary! I tell ya, I wish I were in China where I'd be tortured and executed for my opposition instead of here, where our evil government "watches" us! Oooooohhhhhh....

 

Have you been to tiananmen to see what the response is when you do this? My mate went and stood in the open there and yelled out " **** communism **** the chinese governemt" to see if it got a response. Other than a few people looking on including a soldier (these guys seem to have nothing to do as theres so many) nothing happened.

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plz dont think of me as chinese. i'm chinese american i'm patriotic and my loyalties lie with the US completely. none with china

yeah yeah yeah but i mean you shuold know *more* than others who haven't been to china.

internet sharing?? i know for a fact that most chinese gamers do not own full retail version of games. they buy cheap hacked chinese versions of the game for 5 yuan. the prices for retail commerical games is like 200 yuan each...not many can get them. i oppose internet sharing stuff. pay for music and movies, dont download them online. its illegal and wrong

yeah yeah yeah we know, but don't you think it's too expensive? can we really afford that?

i heard that chinese communists are good at using circular logic

maybe, but you don't receive any chinese education. it is more like brainwash (just for u):evil::evil: and hell i hate politics.

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Have you been to tiananmen to see what the response is when you do this? My mate went and stood in the open there and yelled out " **** communism **** the chinese governemt" to see if it got a response. Other than a few people looking on including a soldier (these guys seem to have nothing to do as theres so many) nothing happened.

Are you ACTUALLY making the point that the Chinese government doesn't oppress dissenting opinions... based on THAT? You're kidding me, right? Did your friend yell that in Chinese? I don't think that soldiers, speaking in a different language and ignoring a couple idiot tourists, is the equivalent of freedom. Call me crazy...

 

The fact that you're even brining up Tiananmen Square to illustrate this is incredibly ironic... I mean, that's the place where protesters were slaughtered by the state in 1989 by the hundreds (or thousands- probably thousands). Holy cow....

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the chinese government likes to pretend it never happened. tianmen squre is a popular tourist site. has sum nice looking dragon statues inside...but they still have mao hanging on the big wall.

 

2 years ago, when i went to china, i did not hear a single person say anything about the government. and yes i can understand chinese perfectly (mandarin and shanghainese only), as well as read and speak enough to survive on my own lol. i still passed as a tourist though cause of my clothes. brand name shirts like oldnavy,polo, etc are symbols or tourists or rich people cause they're too expensive for ordinary people

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brand name shirts like oldnavy,polo, etc are symbols or tourists or rich people cause they're too expensive for ordinary people

Interesting, isn't it? Average, run of the mill shirts from the US like those are considered signs of wealth in that communist nation. Our average junk is gold over there. Oh what a utopia! I can see why some people still praise the ideals of communism! CLEARLY they bring wealth "to the people" :lol: :rofl:

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i still passed as a tourist though cause of my clothes. brand name shirts like oldnavy,polo, etc are symbols or tourists or rich people cause they're too expensive for ordinary people

Do you really think that people discover a tourist only by his clothes?

 

Interesting, isn't it? Average, run of the mill shirts from the US like those are considered signs of wealth in that communist nation. Our average junk is gold over there. Oh what a utopia! I can see why some people still praise the ideals of communism! CLEARLY they bring wealth "to the people"

I can see how foolish you are when you compare a developing nation with a developed one that had been indutrialized more than a century ago. It's like awarding a runner with false start! Do you know what China was like at the beginning of the last century? Do you know when communism was introduced in China? You clearly DO have a sense of history!

BTW, for your information, there're loads of people wearing your "junk" here, and not all of them are rich. So stop being so immature and laughing at anything you saw and heard.

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From an admin to a CNCNZ forum newbie... I give you this advice. Don't argue with the BWare, you'll only lose either that or you'll get this topic locked. :wink:

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Nah, I disagree. This topic has some very valid and interesting opinions and arguements, I'd like to see it continue. Providing it's kept clean.

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the chinese government likes to pretend it never happened. tianmen squre is a popular tourist site. has sum nice looking dragon statues inside...but they still have mao hanging on the big wall.

 

Sad they can't learn from it.

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Which brings up another HUGE difference here....

 

Communist hide their mistakes and attrocities by ruling the people to the point where the people fear to bring up anything from the past that would make the government look bad. Whereas elsewhere (such as Democracies and Republics) you can bring it up, and things are openly debated and studies to ensure that we do not make the same mistakes. Granted, no one is perfect, but at least we (as in the free peoples of Earth) do make the effort to avoid that kind of thing. You know, instead of running them over with tanks and troops....

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I can see how foolish you are when you compare a developing nation with a developed one that had been indutrialized more than a century ago. It's like awarding a runner with false start! Do you know what China was like at the beginning of the last century? Do you know when communism was introduced in China? You clearly DO have a sense of history!

BTW, for your information, there're loads of people wearing your "junk" here, and not all of them are rich. So stop being so immature and laughing at anything you saw and heard.

China is one of the most ancient civilizations alive. America has been around for a couple centuries. America is an INFANT of a nation! If anyone has a "false start," per your analogy, it's China.

 

Oh, and it's ironic that you call our stuff over there "junk"... do you have ANY idea what kinds of crap your country floods ours with on a daily basis? :haha:

 

My point is that communism is a negative. The only reason that China is seeing any progress now is because they're starting to YIELD to capitalism! That's the point here. The people under communism always- ALWAYS- get screwed, even though communism claims to be pro-working man. It always- ALWAYS- ends up being far worse than anything capitalism could EVER produce. My point was that China is a horrible mess, and while there are obviously other factors involved, communist oppression sure as hell hasn't helped anything.

 

That's what's relevant here.

 

From an admin to a CNCNZ forum newbie... I give you this advice. Don't argue with the BWare, you'll only lose either that or you'll get this topic locked.

Haha! Now I'd object to that, but it's technically pretty right on. In debates I will yield points and admit when I'm wrong (which isn't often! :P :wink:). In arguments, though, I tend to do neither :P

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Actually it could be argued that china is going down the path towards true communism. For true communism to occure it must have gone through a capitalist econonmy first (biggest mistake russia made). Also the fact that i saw some places in china now have elections with many more going down that road shows they are getting closer to true communism with democratically elected officials.

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Oh, no question! And when the time comes, China's leaders, for the good of the people, will voluntarily step down and bask in the glory of "true communism," side-by-side and hand-in-hand with the lowliest peasants, right? :rofl:

 

Aww... that's adorable :rofl:

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Ok, I would like to make a statement.

 

I like freedom. I like not being forced to work. Those are the things we get from capitalism. But one negative thing that brings can be seen here in the Philippines. Yeah, were free. But take a look. Alot of us don't have work, and live in the most horrible places you can imagine. That's where communism becomes positive. Everyone has work. Everyone can have money, unlike here in the Philippines in which thousands of people have to beg, or scavenge in garbage bins, because they don't have work, which means that they don't have money to buy food. That is the cost of so much freedom. In the developed countries this dosen't apply, but for poor and developing countries, this can be something that can be considered positive. Take a look at China. They aren't that free, but they're ways better off than certain "free" countries like the Philippines. And I don't see why even books on communism are considered contraband here at the Philippines. I got told off by a teacher once just for reading Marxism After Marx. Also, communism is now diverse from what Karl Marx first concieved it as. Capitalism is positive, but only after the country has developed. You might say that the Spanish did something like communsim by forcing us Filipinos to work when they colonized us (the Polo/Sapilitang Paggawa), but it went bad right? Because the Spanish were ABUSING us and monopolizing our stuff.

 

So, in general, for 3rd world countries, communism is good until they fully develop and are able to change into a capitalist country. Which means one thing: Capitalism & Communism are both positive and negative in certain ways.

 

Any comments against my statements, I'll accept...

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That is something to consider. Although after reading Alphabears statement, Im just about dead from laughter. Those are traits of capitalism and democracy, not "true" communism.

 

[email protected] - Im sorry to hear that. But are those traits of capitalism, or lazy/ greedy people, I wonder.....

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[email protected] Thanks for the thoughtful contribution to the conversation dude. That is interesting perspective.

 

Now a couple quick points- Communism only looks like a good thing under desperate conditions. Surely you realize that this isn't a situation where clear, productive thinking tends to happen. Communism is a desperation move. Any "good" that people think can come from it is extremely short term. They don't care about their long term freedoms or even safety if they can't eat, right? I see what you're saying here, but the points I've made so far about communism still stand. It is of course easy for me to say this, living in the affluence of America, but anyone with a clear mind can see the perils of communism and the potential abundance that capitalism can and will bring.

 

I feel for the developing capitalist nations. Capitalism is, at its core, a pretty cut-throat system. It mimmicks nature, after all (which is why it works so well). The weaker animals get torn to pieces. Looking at this with little depth in your understanding, you can easily become cynical about capitalism. I understand this perspective, but here's my counter:

Compassion should NEVER come from the government or an economic system.

This is where the well intentioned anti-capitalist folks get it horribly wrong. True compassion comes from individuals and the private sector. When compassionate initiatives happen in government, they're usually a disaster. Cold, inefficient beaurocracies are not the best administers of compassion. They lack that personal touch, you know? The success stories here almost exclusively come from individuals and private organizations. The government has no place in charity. It is here simply to keep order, not to cry with you about how hard life can be and "lend a helping hand".

 

Churches and religious organizations are huge forces in charity. They do more good for people than the government ever could. For as much as some folks love to badmouth "religion," the religious folks are ALWAYS there to lend a helping hand and counter the harshness of the capitalist system, government, and reality in general! In a way, these organizations are like an unofficial arm of the government, and an integral part of society. That's a big reason why the whole "separation of church and state" concept, misinterpreted, is so harmful to society. It's slowly cutting the compassionate arm out of society!

 

Haha, I'm rambling a bit... but there ya go! All important stuff :P

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BWare, while I agree that religion has done its fair share of good, it does not belong with politics and business. It's too influential and people need to make decisions based upon the idea's merit and not always where it's "what Jesus would do."

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Why doesn't it belong with politics and business? What reason do you have for that? Further, why is "what would Jesus do" such a bad idea in your eyes? You used it condescendingly.

 

 

For the record- I do believe that religion and politics should be separate entities- no question. This is for the same reason that I believe charity and government should be separate. Government has one central role, and that doesn't involve telling people what to believe or "lend a helping hand."

 

Religion is, at least in the American example, the stabilizing factor that keeps the inherently selfish system of capitalism from spinning out of control. Personal morality, facilitated by religion, keeps people human and tempers the fires of the capitalist machine. It's necessary for the balance. Without it, Marx would be right about capitalism destroying itself. It hasn't- he was wrong. He refused to factor in religion and its massive benefits to society. He saw it as an opiate for the masses, and nothing more. We all know how well his views and opinions have held up over time... :lol:

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wow, very insightful...some stuff I never would have thought of :nod:

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Although after reading Alphabears statement, Im just about dead from laughter. Those are traits of capitalism and democracy, not "true" communism.

 

But to become a true communist nation it must have gone through these stages of development. True communism was not designed to be applied to developing nations. The nation had to have gone through democracy and capitalism first as well as an industrial revolution. This is why it was created with Britain in mind. China had never gone through these stages. And yes turf communism still has democratically elected officials.

 

Oh, no question! And when the time comes, China's leaders, for the good of the people, will voluntarily step down and bask in the glory of "true communism," side-by-side and hand-in-hand with the lowliest peasants, right? ROFL

 

it has already happened in a few places throughout china. Many more are looking at having elections soon.

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But do you not see? Democratic elections would be more along the lines of...oh I dont know,.....a Democratic nation. Now pardon me if I missed one, but when's the last time a Democratic nation had a Communist economy.....

 

Arent election campaigns funded via personal money? So in effect, a communist electoree would be using the money of the state to try and get elected to change the state....doesnt look like it would work to me. Else the people working for the state would not need to be replaced if the nominees (for replacement/election) were going to just do the same thing. As we have seen in the past, a threat to Communism within the system is generaly put down or it "disapears".

 

So I would wonder about the health of those attemping an election campaign within a Communist regeime.

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