C&C 3 Gets Revolutionized Tomorrow

[fox34343 1]

It was not what I was expecting... But from most of the posts about the revolution I've read on EAs forum people would be just as hacked off whatever the announcement was.

 

If it was the expansion... People would say OMFG it's too early, typical EA release an add-on before the game has it's bugged fixed.

 

If it was the patch... Crappy doesn't fix anything or makes the balance worse..

 

Or if it was the SDK... OMFG boring or I don't even like mods.

 

Either way EA lose...

 

I read all the arguments and upset on why cnc3 sucks ass... But I cant help feel even if it was perfect certain members of our community would complain.

[Saracen 16]

All this community ever wanted from C&C 3 was a continuation from where Firestorm left off. Then all they could have asked for was a carefully co-ordinated and explained transition into what we have now. That would be fine. But the reason why people are ticked off is because that never occurred.

 

Having the guy who wrote the actual book, write the C&C story with that in mind, before going out and developing the game would have been the best option. Everything would have remained consistant. The transition could have been made, and EA would have had many more satisfied customers.

 

All we asked for was this, and in the actual game, a bit more time and polish. The hardcore could have waited for as long as necessary if this game was going to be crafted instead of produced by the corporate machine. But the "Time is money" approach of corporations meant that this game and everything around it cannot be appriciated.

 

So what you see is a clearly rushed game lacking so much. And as a result it's now EA having to fix canon inconsistencies. All this could have been avoided if the game was given 3-6 months more work.

[recover 2]

What I didn't want was an announcement for an announcement, which this obviously is!

I mean, why even BOTHER to go to the site the 7th if nothing is going to happen until the 14th!!!

It's not like I wouldn't catch it in the 7 days in between.

 

To be serious: This does indeed seem like something nice, but it's hardly revolutionizing C&C at all.

And: you really asked for this to hype to the unnecessary heights it went to, 'Revolution' is a way too strong word for something that doesn't even happen when it's supposed to happen (which was TODAY).

Doh!

[rEdaSbLood 1]

a big disappointment, mostly because it was indeed over-hyped...

 

and Saracen's last post was right on the money...

[Aaron Kaufman 0]

I feel like Jack Bauer being held hostage in China before Season 6 begins.

 

I agree the word "revolution" was pretty strong and not the best choice. It was not my exact choice but I do think it can still stand. I'd save your judgment for the show, we aren't out to over-hype it or else we'd be publicizing it a lot more. The hype created itself based on the word "revolution", not any promise or information.

 

I'm a fan of trying new things and I fully support our "Battlecast Primetime" initiative. Yes Starcraft has some shows in Korea but they aren't run by Blizzard and the culture there is its own beast. EVE online has a similar online video game show for their game, run by them, however...you do need to pay to watch it, kind of weird but still cool. No RTS, and certainly not C&C have ever had a dedicated show in this manner. Our ultimate goal is to create a SportsCenter-esque show for online battles with highlighted news and community news and other various programming throughout the show. Outside of Korea and various one-off competitions like WCG, nobody is really doing this to any extent for their games.

 

 

We're trying something new and its not derailing any of our other efforts. Its adding another layer that we think has the potential to be very entertaining for fans, the community, and anyone else with an interest in RTS.

 

If you want to be cynical about it without having watched it yet, I leave that opinion to you. I'm the type who usually saves judgment before watching unless its the movie Pathfinder which I let my girlfriend convince me to watch last night...poor decision on my part.

 

We have not delivered on our Battlecast viewer or the intended MOD SDK release date, but for those in particular their delays were unforeseen. Its a tough development world we live in sometimes. You pick your battles and deliveries carefully and do your best. MOD SDK is coming with patch 1.07 which is under QA testing right now and due for release later this month and the Battlecast viewer is undergoing development as well.

 

My efforts in the community are not to make undelivered promises or give you any over-hype. Some have said we over-hype patches, that really confuses me. Are we excited and passionate about our games, yes, as every developer should believe in their work.

 

Using the word "revolution"...not the best choice hype wise given your reaction, but is what we are doing a revolution for C&C over the past 12 years...I think it can be.

 

I'm looking forward to your thoughts after we air the show. It can be a very cool show for the community in many ways and your feedback will be critical.

 

-APOC

[Gben 20]

Ok so I *was* dissapointed with the final answer.

 

But if we can step aside (some might need a olympic sized long-jump-run-up to make that little step) from some apparent/obvious problems with over-hype... the actual feature being promoted is pretty cool.

 

Sure it's a podcast by any other name, but it's obviously going to be a high quality presentation then any other content being produced right now. And with more of Joe Kucan's famous adlib!!! I think this is laudible and great news. How they can afford to do this... I have no idea.

 

At least it wasn't a mod sdk, at least it wasn't a patch, glad it's not a 'rushed' expansion or sequel. Maybe we would have received this better if Aaron used his thesaurus a little better... but I feel like this thread is an over-reaction though.

 

I mean if C&C were a country, and this community were it's population... I think it's most likely that we'd be considered the Taliban from Afghanistan insisting that everybody follow Shariah law.

 

 

 

Guys, don't burn the bridges with EA. The final story hasn't been written, and if you maintain constructive dialogue you keep the opportunity to influence future fiction.

 

Unless... you *really* don't care about the C&C and prefer to complain about EA and hark on about the good old days. We gotta build on the "apology" dialogue. Help improve C&C, help improve community communciation. Aaron doesn't make the news, he just reports it. We just need to help him do it in a better way.

 

[cue refrain]

...The final story hasn't been written.

[fade out]

 

-gben

 

EDIT: NB: Apoc's post was uploaded before mine, but I hadn't seen it.

[Aaron Kaufman 0]

I do make news and create stories and help communicate and market with the community, thats one facet of my role. Giving fan-sites exposure on our main hub right now is one of my new initiatives as you can see, half the news currently is from our fan-sites communicating with me for stories to highlight, very cool.

 

Using the word "revolution"...I agree, not the best choice i'd often agree with, but in thinking what the show can be for the C&C community, it can be revolutionary. I wouldn't take the word and just dismiss the show without having seen it or giving it the potential to develop.

 

Being the liaison between you guys and our dev/marketing team is pretty challenging on a daily basis. You pick and choose your battles, you try and keep the community excited, and you try new things.

 

Apparent over-hype apologies aside, the proof will be in the pudding, I'm hopeful you guys will like it and have a continued interest to help us improve.

 

-APOC

[Sonic 296]

Guys, don't attack APOC directly please. Remember he is a guest on our forums, he is another member just like you. Our rules ask you to avoid personal attacks towards other forum members. If you don't agree with what someone posted, debate their post... not the person that posted it.

 

This little warning goes to the guys with the CNCNZ.com tag below their names as well.

 

APOC is only doing his job, your differences with him should be discussed via PM or e-mail.

 

If you have questions about C&C TV post them here http://forums.cncnz.com/viewtopic.php?t=8419, I'm sure APOC will answer them for you.

[Gben 20]

I do make news and create stories and help communicate and market with the community, thats one facet of my role.

-APOC

 

Um, minor point but I'm refering to the cliche of "reporting news not making the news"... in terms of you don't make the game you just let us know what's happening.

 

Using the word "revolution"...I agree, not the best choice i'd often agree with, but in thinking what the show can be for the C&C community, it can be revolutionary.

-APOC

 

I agree on both points: that this a new concept that will *enhance* the community and in ordinary circumstances may be considered *revolutionary*, but considering the backlash in our community about the "over-hyped" environment - this annoucment was doomed to failure.

 

.

.

.

It's not a very practical solution, but perhaps if the news had been 'leaked' better to the community leaders it could have been handled better, well at least here anyway. Or maybe like previously posted, the "annoucement for the annoucement" was probably part of the problem.

 

If you had simply added the words "C&CTV" to the "prepare to be revolutionized" - it may have been received better. May have.

 

It's all in the perspective and hindsight.

 

Apparent over-hype apologies aside, the proof will be in the pudding, I'm hopeful you guys will like it and have a continued interest to help us improve.

-APOC

 

Well, I for one, am looking forward to the first episode.

 

-gben

[TheBlackOut 7]

I do make news and create stories and help communicate and market with the community, thats one facet of my role. Giving fan-sites exposure on our main hub right now is one of my new initiatives as you can see, half the news currently is from our fan-sites communicating with me for stories to highlight, very cool.

 

Using the word "revolution"...I agree, not the best choice i'd often agree with, but in thinking what the show can be for the C&C community, it can be revolutionary. I wouldn't take the word and just dismiss the show without having seen it or giving it the potential to develop.

 

Being the liaison between you guys and our dev/marketing team is pretty challenging on a daily basis. You pick and choose your battles, you try and keep the community excited, and you try new things.

 

Apparent over-hype apologies aside, the proof will be in the pudding, I'm hopeful you guys will like it and have a continued interest to help us improve.

 

-APOC

 

Hopefully you do incorporate some stuff story fans of C&C will like I hope... Because I'm not burning this idea down, but I'd rather play a game than watch it. Especially video games. To have broadcasting matches (which battlecaster was suppose to do anyways) and watch 'em... Eh. Commentary... Mmm. I donno. If I wanted to buff up my C&C 3 skills or learn what I did wrong I'll submit my replay to GR.org and they'll critique it or I can read BOs and strats.

 

The idea does have potentional though and I'll reserve judgment.

[Luk3us 63]

lol... Each week, EA goes over to GR and grabs the ROTW and puts it on the show.

[Aaron Kaufman 0]

Someone answer me this:

 

Explain the "over-hyped" environment. We have never said this will be the best thing since sliced bread for anything.

 

When marketing C&C 3 early on, we did not claim it to be the best RTS ever or even hands down best C&C ever.

 

When producing patches, we've been careful about our choice of words when referring to release. If the MOD SDK did not require a patch, then it would have been out by now. We've been constantly improving it every day and mod teams are getting by without it. Having it will help with the final layers.

 

So, if there is something being "over-hyped"...do tell because in the video game and entertainment business, you need to market to the world and work to rise above the pack, and whether your community enjoys it or not, its a necessity to survive. There are thousands upon thousands of C&C fans outside the community circle of fan-sites and message boards who don't partake in our rituals and daily communications here. Its a very different type of communication to them than it is to you guys and on the message boards. Lets not confuse the two together.

 

RTS as a Sport has yet to prove itself and the Battlecast Viewer is coming. We had to delay it because of our intense patch efforts and upgrading the Battlecast system. I'll be discussing this matter a lot more in a blog, podcast, etc. But just so you guys know, we've had every intent to fulfill this end of the bargain, its a new 1.0 system for the RTS genre and there is a lot of ground to be proven. I firmly believe and passionately believe we can get there.

 

But to end my point, aside from "revolution", someone tell me what's been "over-hyped"? You can't say the game, because over 2 million people have played it, its the most successful C&C launch ever statistically speaking, and critics and the majority of the community have enjoyed it immensely. The shortcomings and downsides are not related to any "over-hyped-environment". The hardest of the hard core, you guys, have your gripes, but I don't think those gripes warrant this use of "over-hyped" constantly.

 

That's my two cents, i'm just trying to understand, where people are feeling "over-hyped". For me as your Community Manager, getting you excited is one thing, being real and upfront is another, both i've been working at doing for nearly 3 years between LOTR and C&C.

 

Thanks for the bit of defense Sonic, I certainly understand frustration. KANE would have welcomed me to his inner circle yesterday i'm sure.

 

-APOC

[TheRoadToDawn 0]

Its not, and there is no, "over hyping" in the idea for C&C TV, APOC. There are just some who think that EA's involvement and advertisment for C&C 3 might be going too far for its own good. My opinion is the opposite however. H*ll I think C&C TV is what this game needs, only on actual television itself.

 

Everyone just likes to have there say even if you cant understand what they are referring to by it.

 

The fact is there are still to this day, some people that still have grudges to settle with the new way C&C is being developed, say from Westwood to EA, and broadcasted to the public and sometimes they like to take it out on someone, like you because your the easy target (no offense entended), or just the community in a whole. This really upsets me too, because you have to either fight back or the excitment for the event in question just dies and your left with a grudge yourself.

 

Even I griped a little, but after playing the game and applying patches, I single handedly regret everything I said. :roll: Except of course for the lack of mechs and cyborgs, blah, blah, blah (I was a big fan of thos on Tiberian Sun but thats old news).

 

Point is, there will always be critics and they will always be a pain in the a** to deal with.

[Doctor Destiny 41]

Agreed RTD. However what I'd really like to see is more support for TFD games, as well. They're far from dead and it would help your rep, Apoc. But, that's just me I guess.

[TheBlackOut 7]

Yea that's like 99.99% of my grudge against EA is because of the TFD. There wasn't even an update option on the TFD menu. The first week of it's released the official C&C EA boards looked like a freaking 4chan raid. :|

[Guest Rabbit]

You know what? Screw this. I've deleted my last post, and I'm changing my ideals around a bit.

 

I'm not going to make any more comments until I see the first broadcast. If I can make a silly podcast that just updates people on the news, or if I can make a TV show with shotty legos that people seem to enjoy, I'm sure EA can make SOMETHING out of this.

 

Either way, I'm done in here. Personally, I suggest everyone feel the same way, because there's really no way to tell what's going to happen until we see the final product, no matter how many screwups there could have been in the past.

 

My only worry is that they'll stop making episodes in the long run, but it's not like some network will cancel them.

[TheBlackOut 7]

Maybe they'll announce an expansion right off the bat first episode!

[Saracen 16]

You know what? Screw this. I've deleted my last post, and I'm changing my ideals around a bit.

 

I'm quoting this as an example, but where's the backbone or the balls to uphold the points you believed in earlier guys?

 

I still stand by what I've said, I'm not going to buckle because the community manager has said a few words. If you say something you should stick by it, end of story.

 

Calling this a revolution to me is over-hyping. Regardless of the so-called excuses marketing can make, there is no excuse. I doubt we'll see the entire RTS genre follow suit. Furthermore, it's technically false promotion to say this is a revolution, because the Koreans have been doing this for years with Starcraft, and to me it seems no different from Blizz-con.

 

EA has no need to survive, I'd hardly call it a small company, and it doesn't matter what EA will do, if it's a successful franchise people will buy it. Furthermore, a lot of EA's success over the years has been through swallowing up small companies like Bullfrog, Maxis and Westwood and living off their success. So a game like C&C 3 didn't need hardly any marketing to sell. Cos those 2 million copies sold came from it's previous success and 8 years worth of expectation. EA needed to do nothing other than say "C&C 3 is coming!"

 

EA are also flogging a dead horse if it can think for one moment that it's going to be the one to secure the "RTS as a sport". It's fighting a losing battle. The only way you could have secured this game as a sport was to thrust it in the Koreans faces, forcing them to put down their copies of Starcraft. And you would have needed to release the Battlecast viewer from day one, not 6+ months down the line. A horse isn't going to win the Kentucky Derby if it starts racing 6 minutes after the rest have started the race, so why should this be any different. This so-called sport has stalled, and you're not going to get that back until you release your next RTS.

 

I work within other communities, and I'm not just talking the Petroglyph community here. But the marketing of other companies, should it be Relic, Blizzard, or whoever, have let any information released generate it's own hype. Community managers of these companies have simply released the information, stated it's features and background information in detail, and then the community take it in and make their own views.

 

EA's marketing on the other hand has to label everything, to make the latest news look cool. On top of everything else, you try you hardest to make the game look better than it really is. It's not right, and in my opinion it's out of touch with the rest of the industry.

[Koen 2]

I'm quoting this as an example, but where's the backbone or the balls to uphold the points you believed in earlier guys? ... If you say something you should stick by it, end of story.

Why yes, we could stick by our point. But the Dutch expression is "voortschrijdende inzichten" - ongoing insights, roughly translated. You can feel very strongly at some point in time about something, but maybe sometime in the future you won't feel very strongly about it anymore.

[Saracen 16]

You mean like how Kane didn't strongly believe in killing Kilian Qatar after she betrayed the brotherhood, so he got some soft looking mexican who's obviously never handled a gun in his life, to do it instead. In the past, Kane wouldn't normally hesitate to grab a gun and do it himself.

 

I've just gotta start up C&C 3 again just to see that bit, because not only is it so hilarious and out of character for Kane, he should have displayed more anger, and would have normally even threatened death to Ajay for his hesitancy. It's just such a poorly done scene.

[Gben 20]

Someone answer me this:

 

Explain the "over-hyped" environment. We have never said this will be the best thing since sliced bread for anything.

-APOC

 

Sure, I'll have a bash.

http://forums.cncnz.com/viewtopic.php?p=116974#116974

Basically the argument boils down to the general perception that you over-commit and under-perform, whereas Saracen and others probably want a toned-down, matter-of-fact, release of information. I think I can confidently summarize with their attitude of 'grossly exagerating the importance of *minor* updates' and 'minimizing and hiding from major problems with the gaming experience' of C&C3. It's not about quantity, but quality. I don't think we're fussed over dates for patch releases or anything like that...

 

So, if there is something being "over-hyped"...do tell because in the video game and entertainment business, you need to market to the world and work to rise above the pack, and whether your community enjoys it or not, its a necessity to survive. There are thousands upon thousands of C&C fans outside the community circle of fan-sites and message boards who don't partake in our rituals and daily communications here. Its a very different type of communication to them than it is to you guys and on the message boards. Lets not confuse the two together.

-APOC

 

This is your job, I understand that, and was trying to point that out in the other thread. (What I see, is the attempt to shoot the messenger when we don't like the news.)

 

And yes Saracen, it *is* a matter of survival. You have to be agressive to stay in front, companies have to sleep with one eye open. I have no problem with that. The reason EA is in the strong position it is, is because of these sort of practicise.

 

RTS as a Sport has yet to prove itself and the Battlecast Viewer is coming. We had to delay it because of our intense patch efforts and upgrading the Battlecast system. I'll be discussing this matter a lot more in a blog, podcast, etc. But just so you guys know, we've had every intent to fulfill this end of the bargain, its a new 1.0 system for the RTS genre and there is a lot of ground to be proven. I firmly believe and passionately believe we can get there.

 

But to end my point, aside from "revolution", someone tell me what's been "over-hyped"?

-APOC

 

I'm guessing part of the answer to this question is the fact - that nobody seems to have guessed this was the annoucement. We were all looking instead for content to improve our gaming experience: whether it'd be patches, mod sdks, expansions or sequels. Obviously that's where our focus is, because this is what's important to us. I don't know, some quote about where your treasure is there is your heart also, seems appropriate here. (shrug) Maybe a TV idea is something that indicates the game is complete and worth showing off, where we see improvements still need to be made...

 

You can't say the game, because over 2 million people have played it, its the most successful C&C launch ever statistically speaking, and critics and the majority of the community have enjoyed it immensely.

-APOC

 

yep, this is a telling statistic.

 

Not including lurkers, CNCNZ has 2045 registered members in total. If we all bought a copy of C&C3 (which we haven't) our little community represents 0.10225% of the APOC's flock. We don't all own it, and probably the majority of us don't even play it actively. So we're the vocal minority! We should admit this, and frame our correspondence with him accordingly.

 

It's not that our view points aren't valid, it's just that it's not that important, from a purely statistical viewpoint. EA is trying to balance loyalty to a diminishing crowd of people who have already bought a game in the past to attracting new customers in a fiercely competive market of today. Today's gamers have different appetites, and this should be considered. That doesn't replace the need for compelling gameply mechanics etc etc etc.

 

The shortcomings and downsides are not related to any "over-hyped-environment". The hardest of the hard core, you guys, have your gripes, but I don't think those gripes warrant this use of "over-hyped" constantly.

 

That's my two cents, i'm just trying to understand, where people are feeling "over-hyped". For me as your Community Manager, getting you excited is one thing, being real and upfront is another, both i've been working at doing for nearly 3 years between LOTR and C&C.

 

Thanks for the bit of defense Sonic, I certainly understand frustration. KANE would have welcomed me to his inner circle yesterday i'm sure.

-APOC

 

I just wish EA were given more credit for what they are trying to do rather than branding them as the Anti-Christ for every step they make.

 

-gben

[Guest Rabbit]

Here's my take on it, and, please, bear with me.

 

In regards to me suddenly changing my mind, I'm simply saying this. I'm not going to form a realistic opinion until I see the product. I'm not going to make assumptions yet.

 

As for it being related to Apoc, here's the fact of the matter. I support his ideas at times, and I support Saracen's ideas at times. Unfortunately, since their ideas are broadly separated, and pretty much cancel each other out, I feel that I don't know which way to support.

 

Maybe I should be more like Sonic in the sense that he holds a neutral opinion publicly (most of the time).

[Aaron Kaufman 0]

If I ever type an opinion back that is defensive in manner, its not because I don't respect a person in the communities opinion, its because I have a different opinion of my own and as a Community Manager, that is ME...expressing my opinion.

 

I always take feedback back to the dev team and strive to let the community know what makes the final cut, what we agree with, what we don't, maybe its that we are too honest and upfront with sharing our opinions...

 

I drive my opinion based on my own playstyle with the game, expectations, and what I know of the development team behind me. I do try and mix some sarcasm and humor in my replies every so often, or just be dry and cordial.

 

When the community is driving good ideas, we're always listening and attentive. With C&C 3 our official message boards became more of an official haven than in past times and my time was largely spent there. I can definitely take it as a key learning to spread myself out more and now with 7 mods in place on our boards, it will be much easier.

 

Getting e-mail slammed every day from people all over the community, I fully admit some notes have slipped under the carpet. We're human, it happens, and its never intentional.

 

Every community leader that knows my e-mail address has always been welcome to submit ideas or be heard, just as the rest of the community is through the various message boards. We spent a lot of time listening and reacting to the big and small minorities of the C&C community when developing C&C 3 and many community leaders who came to both of our community summits, even Saracen himself, had the opportunity to voice an opinion. The door is always open and we do our best to take all opinions in to consideration, with respect to the development time we have left in a project.

 

I have to say, i'm not a cyborg when it comes to reporting news. I have an opinion, a personality, and a passion and excitement for everything C&C.

 

I know Delphi is the immortal C&C community manager king and he happens to be an old friend of mine as well. Where C&C was the coolest and newest kid on the block before Generals, today...the RTS competition is fierce and you have to do everything you can in your own unique style to stay with or above the crowd. The same marketing and commmunity practices from 5-10 years ago can't be done exactly the same today, and I am not a traditionalist.

 

 

Had I known the unfortunate delays in our MOD SDK & Battlecast Viewer would have happened, I sure would have altered my communication strategy. You take your chances and bite the bullet sometimes.

 

Feel free to post more ideas about things you'd like to see me do in the community. If its simply more posting on message boards around the community, more interviews, blogs, etc...or just straight up more info, let me know. All the above I work daily at improving as any Community Manager would do.

 

Being a Community Manager is one of the toughest and hard boiling professions. Expectations form the C&C community are just about "Star Wars" in nature, its a hardcore hard-hitting community The .0000001% vocal minority are critical to our development of C&C, the 2 million others who are playing and buying the game, if they aren't participating in the community, then that is their loss. But you do need to take perspective and can't always think that if your vocal minority wants something, its what the majority of your players want. Again, its risk and chance, one of my biggest challenges is balancing that out with our dev team and walking that line with you guys when we create games.

 

 

-APOC

[Guest Rabbit]

This is where I have trouble. Look at Aaron, he's been here for about what, three years now? And me? I've been here since July of 2005. That means I'm even a year short of Aaron, so I know nothing of Delphi.

 

There's no way I can turn my back on CNCNZ, but there's also no way I can turn my back on you guys at EA.

[Koen 2]

There's no way I can turn my back on CNCNZ, but there's also no way I can turn my back on you guys at EA.

You shouldn't have to make any choice. Just follow your own opinion, there's room for plenty of different viewpoints here.