Communism Discussion

[BWare 0]

Alpha, again you're only pointing out problems (caused largely by corrupt politicians- NOT capitalism), and that's where you stop. Are you that intent on bitching about it? Again I invite you to offer a solution. I know it's harder, but seriously, the capitalism bashing is just getting obnoxious.

 

You also said that if you succeed under capitalism, you ARE doing it at the expense of others. This is cynical and idiotic. Stop buying into whatever propaganda you're being fed.

 

 

Bottom line- capitalism is the only economic system that uses the natural order instead of fighting it. That's why it succeeds. It uses man's inherent desire for personal gain (you have yet to explain why this is a bad thing) to drive the economy, which benefits EVERYONE. A rising tide benefits all the ships, as the late great Ronald Reagan said.

[Doctor Destiny 41]

Alphabear just got .

 

[Alphabear 11]

but bware I provided proof its not benefiting everyone with the UN report showing 73 counties are worse off economically than they were. So you line of reasoning that its helping everyone has no proof to back it up.

 

btw, when the big businesses go into developing countries (sometimes poor) they bring jobs to that country, which helps it's economy, because money from overseas is flowing into the country from the people that business hires

Ethiopia was far better off before foreign inperialism and investment changed their agricultural system. Ethiopia was origionally one of the most well of places in africa. But western imperialism turned almost all of the subsistance farmland into cash crops for export. These crops were then taken over by MNCs leaving Ethiopians with barely enough productive land to supply food for their population when the conditions are good.

 

 

 

Bottom line- capitalism is the only economic system that uses the natural order instead of fighting it. That's why it succeeds. It uses man's inherent desire for personal gain (you have yet to explain why this is a bad thing)

 

Did i say the desire for gain was a bad thing. The way Capitalism exploites people such as in developing nations for example is the problem.

 

I never said i had the solution. This is a big issue so any solution someone like myself comes up with is bound to have flaws in it anyway. But just because i dont have the solution doesnt mean i should just accept the problem. Its human nature to attempt to solve problems and duiscussing the problem is a key part of that. Humans have got to where we are today by not just accepting the conditions in which we live and looking for a better way. Capitalism is a good system, it just has some flaws. If we focus on solving these we will be better off in the long run

[Doctor Destiny 41]

Apparently the concept of corrupt politicians and CEOs is lost on you. Capitalism does not produce these sorts of people, human nature does... and not every succeeding business from a capitalist nation is using such bad practice.

 

There's no real solution to the problem. The only real way is to hold politicians and CEOs responsible for deplorable business practice. Aside from that, people will do what they want. Not saying we can't try but it seems like it would almost be wasted effort.

[GeneralZ 0]

i must respond to crazypaladin's remark. I am an AMERICAN. my parents immigrated (legally) to US cause it had more opportunities cause its capitalist. (it was kinda easier to get a visa cause my mom was doctor and dad had teacher, both with master degrees, a very rare thing in china back then). but that was long time ago...not long after the cultural revolution. now china is much different from long time ago though

 

also currently, china is not really a developing country. although u can argue that every1 is paid very little, look at the value of the yuan. everything is scaled porpotionally there, everything is cheaper and affordable. think of the US economy in terms of prices and wages. divide everything by 8 and thats china. it does makes americans seem rich in china though cause their money is worth a LOT more.

 

plz dont think of me as chinese. i'm chinese american i'm patriotic and my loyalties lie with the US completely. none with china

[BWare 0]

but bware I provided proof its not benefiting everyone with the UN report showing 73 counties are worse off economically than they were. So you line of reasoning that its helping everyone has no proof to back it up.

Allow me to quote myself... from my LAST post (you apparently missed it):

Alpha, again you're only pointing out problems (caused largely by corrupt politicians- NOT capitalism)

Corrupt, evil leaders and warlords in third world countries screw them over. The Ethiopia example is somewhat valid, but it's frankly the price of progress. Smaller markets get shoved around a bit, sure, but the global market is still developing. They will find their niche, and until then, there's always the insane generosity of America... the billions and billions of our dollars that we give to developing nations, but for some reason never get credit for....

(Oh, and I will argue any day of the week that imperialism was a net GOOD. But that's definitely an argument for another time :wink:)

 

Did i say the desire for gain was a bad thing. The way Capitalism exploites people such as in developing nations for example is the problem.

That's a cute buzzword... hehe... "exploits." Now let me tell you something. Your attempt here by using a personal word like "exploit" with an economic system is just silly. Capitalism can't "exploit". Groups or people within capitalism do that. Your point here is invalid and unfair.

 

I never said i had the solution.

Okay, then be quiet about it. If all you can do is whine and complain, bemoaning the cruel injustices of capitalism as you sit comfortably at your computer with internet access, ALL DEVELOPED AND PAID FOR via the system you're railing against, then what good are you?

Sure we can recognize and address problems, as you said. But an equally important component to that is finding a FREAKING SOLUTION. That's step 2, and without it, step 1 is just a bunch of obnoxioius noise.

 

This is a big issue so any solution someone like myself comes up with is bound to have flaws in it anyway. But just because i dont have the solution doesnt mean i should just accept the problem.

You have yet to prove that there IS a problem.

 

Capitalism is a good system, it just has some flaws. If we focus on solving these we will be better off in the long run

Capitalism isn't just a "good system"... it's the ONLY system. Name me one better or even comparable, and we can discuss it.

 

Capitalism is the ONLY way the global economy could ever function. I think that we even make a mistake by referring to it as a "system." It's really the antithesis of a system. Adam Smith's "Laissez Faire" concept is simply the absence of a system, and the embracing of the notion of an "invisible hand" which drives the market, moving prices up and down as the market demands. Of course the government has some role in keeping the machine oiled (anti-trust legislation, etc), but for the most part, capitalism is the embracing of the natural order! You'd have to have one hell of a counterpoint to even challenge it.

[F15pilotX 4]

but bware I provided proof its not benefiting everyone with the UN report showing 73 counties are worse off economically than they were. So you line of reasoning that its helping everyone has no proof to back it up.

neither does yours, as far as I'm concerned. With how corrupt the UN is, I don't believe a word of that poll...btw, 73% are worse off than when? Since dicators/commies took over? :roll:

 

 

The way Capitalism exploites people such as in developing nations for example is the problem.

btw, when the big businesses go into developing countries (sometimes poor) they bring jobs to that country, which helps it's economy, because money from overseas is flowing into the country from the people that business hires

 

Capitalism is a good system, it just has some flaws. If we focus on solving these we will be better off in the long run

No system will ever be perfect, so you might as well give up on that; HOWEVER capitalism comes closest to achieving that goal :wink:

[rEdaSbLood 1]

ANARCHY will rule in the end... :wink:

[BWare 0]

ANARCHY will rule in the end... :wink:

Haha, it very well may....

[Cygnus X-1 12]

Except anarchy is the absense of any sort of rule, therefor it cant....

[Doctor Destiny 41]

Yes it can.

[Alphabear 11]

Ok im going to give up here now. Theres no point me continuing if people arnt going to actually read my posts

[BWare 0]

People "arnt" reading your posts? No, I personally have very clearly addressed every point you've made. Don't try to blame it on us just because you feel like giving up. Your choice dude- be a man and admit it. You are up against a wall trying to defend communism, a system with an abysmal historical record of pure failure, but dude... don't be so whiny. This has been a pretty legitimate, point by point debate. In fact, I think that your giving up, simply because you've run out of any points against capitalism, is tantamount to a defeat. Wouldn't you say so?

[Alphabear 11]

The fact that you say i was trying to defend communism proves that you have not been following. The debate progressed from communism a while back. I would just like to make one more statement. You say that because i dont have the answer to solve all the problem is should shut up and just accept it. should we just accept cancer too and give up trying to find a cure?

[BWare 0]

The fact that you say i was trying to defend communism proves that you have not been following. The debate progressed from communism a while back.

Okay, fine. You were defending a person who was defending communism, all the while attacking capitalism. Call me crazy, but that seems pretty damn pro-communist to me.

 

I would just like to make one more statement. You say that because i dont have the answer to solve all the problem is should shut up and just accept it. should we just accept cancer too and give up trying to find a cure?

I'm not going to say that you didn't read my posts. That would be immature. What I WILL say is that you clearly didn't understand them.

Now I will, again, just for your benefit, address that point:

 

Step 1: Find problem.

Step 2: Solve problem.

 

Step 1 is important, yes, because it leads to Step 2. If you stop at Step 1, you're doing nothing but whining and making noise. Those of us who are so gung ho about capitalism see the same "problems" you do, but see them in their proper context. You see what you perceive as injustice, and react emotionally, finding fault with the entire system. It's the liberal mindset.... and it is horribly flawed. The emotional empathy that you experience for the "victims" makes you feel good, compassionate, morally superior, and warm and fuzzy on the inside, but it really is completely useless. It's a high like a drug- once you get a hit of that self-righteous moral superiority, you never go back.

 

So now I will, again, ask you to propose a different way of managing economics before railing against the one working system. Really, I'm not asking that much, am I? It doesn't even have to be revolutionary or brilliant! Just something! Otherwise, it's just noise.

 

Got it this time?

 

(I know I'm being harsh by ascribing the entire liberal mindset to you, but it really seems to fit the bill. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Alphabear 11]

Me defending certain aspects of communism doesnt make me pro communist. Its the same as someone who is anti iraq war isnt neccessarily pro Saddam.

 

Also where did i say the entire capitalist system was flawed. I was agreeing with the main idea behind it but not the way it is carried out in many places

[visceroid 0]

This entire thread have ignored one crucial fact, that is, that you have no right or power to make others agree with you, or accept the facts you presented, if you made no investigations into the matter yourself, or never carefully examined the core of the problem.

 

In a word, the problem is "misunderstanding".

 

Frankly, I don't know exactly how communism is understood in the western world, but according to my information, it is known as "the central-governed social system with a bloody nature, which tends to oppress freedom of speech and publication, reduce productivity, and widen the poverty gap".

 

Well this is pretty ironic, because capitalism in my country is pretty much understood in the SAME way. It goes "the so-called free social system with a bloody nature, which tends to promote false freedom of speech and publication, reduce productivity, and steal wealth from the working class in a silent, peaceful manner, therefore widening the poverty gap".

 

Let us not decide which one is "propaganda" just yet, for we all receive information from others that isn't 100% the truth. A debate without a decent understanding of its subject is stupid enough.

 

What I'm going to say is, that communism is something that has never been realized. There have never been a true-communism on this planet. The "communism"s you were talking about are the false ones, the remains of oppression and exploitation in the name of communism. Perhaps some of you should know more about "socialism", that's what you cannot explain with a pie. I'm not going to define "true" communism, but here are a few things that I would like to clarify:

 

1. I'm from China. Careful, it's not "I'm from communism", or "I will fully support my government". Not "I have no freedom of speech" either.

 

2. All governments, all governing classes, are alike. They take wealth from the rest when they can, and limit the freedom of their people to remain in power. If I say I'm a communist in the USA, I will be immediately banished. Also, the freedoms, the chances, the opportunities you spoke of, can more or less be taken away, and sometimes you can't even notice.

 

3. So stop this c&c (communism & capitalism) discussion, and talk C&C(Command & Conquer)!

 

4. I'm not a communist, but I'm a network-communist who promotes internet sharing. If C&C3's good enough(the gameplay, the storyline), then why not? It has NOTHING to do with politics and that's it. I don't quite understand the meaning of the last option of this vote.

[GeneralZ 0]

Well this is pretty ironic, because capitalism in my country is pretty much understood in the SAME way. It goes "the so-called free social system with a bloody nature, which tends to promote false freedom of speech and publication, reduce productivity, and steal wealth from the working class in a silent, peaceful manner, therefore widening the poverty gap".

Let us not decide which one is "propaganda" just yet, for we all receive information from others that isn't 100% the truth. A debate without a decent understanding of its subject is stupid enough.

 

ur from china right? the chinese have adapted capitalist policies for their economy, all the while saying capitalism sucks. u cannot argue china's economy is communist...its capitalist with all these new chinese entrepreneurs having sucess. it came after deng xiao-ping decided things needed to change. lookat china's economy b4 that? the chinese communist party are hypocrites. from a practical viewpoint, capitalism has suceeded. capitalism is not about big corporations stealing wealth from other countries. its about a market economy that allows those who seize the opportunity to make money. and thats why the western world is sucessfull. capitalist. communism on the other hand....its true that there isnt any real communism, but real communism just is NOT doable. communism sounds good in logic, but in reality, it just doesnt work. true communism would never work with human nature.

 

2. All governments, all governing classes, are alike. They take wealth from the rest when they can, and limit the freedom of their people to remain in power. If I say I'm a communist in the USA, I will be immediately banished. Also, the freedoms, the chances, the opportunities you spoke of, can more or less be taken away, and sometimes you can't even notice.

3. So stop this c&c (communism & capitalism) discussion, and talk C&C(Command & Conquer)!

 

u have been misinformed. not all governments are alike. here in teh US, the government takes the wealth from us in form of taxes. then gives it back us by paying for social services. who pays the police, firemen, libraries, and funds for public projects? the government usingo our tax money. limit freedom of speech....only china does that. u can be a communist here but they wont arrest u. theres even a communist party here but they're tiny cause no1 likes them. u will not be banished. also, would u dare call president hu jintao a moron and wear a "i hate hujintao shirt" in public? hope u have fun running from police. People do that HERE. democrats despise bush and there are anti-bush t-shirts going around. so we do have free speech. the only time its limited is when its a threat to our country.

 

so u, living in ur communist china with no freedoms other than the chance to make money are sadly misinformed

 

4. I'm not a communist, but I'm a network-communist who promotes internet sharing.

internet sharing?? i know for a fact that most chinese gamers do not own full retail version of games. they buy cheap hacked chinese versions of the game for 5 yuan. the prices for retail commerical games is like 200 yuan each...not many can get them. i oppose internet sharing stuff. pay for music and movies, dont download them online. its illegal and wrong

[visceroid 0]

ur from china right? the chinese have adapted capitalist policies for their economy, all the while saying capitalism sucks. u cannot argue china's economy is communist...its capitalist with all these new chinese entrepreneurs having sucess. it came after deng xiao-ping decided things needed to change. lookat china's economy b4 that? the chinese communist party are hypocrites. from a practical viewpoint, capitalism has suceeded. capitalism is not about big corporations stealing wealth from other countries. its about a market economy that allows those who seize the opportunity to make money. and thats why the western world is sucessfull. capitalist. communism on the other hand....its true that there isnt any real communism, but real communism just is NOT doable. communism sounds good in logic, but in reality, it just doesnt work. true communism would never work with human nature.

 

We do not say "capitalism sucks" or "capitalism is bad" these days. We say that we should learn from foreign countries. What have we learnt? Capitalism? Maybe. Call it as you will. But in a way we are breaking a path to communism. I did not say China's economy is communist. I said it's SOCIALIST. What's that? That's when you look at nations and histories of the world, find the best solution, and deploy it. And if you say it's not doable, you mean it's only in theory. But every system started with a theory. You said it yourself, "sounds good in logic". If the logic's correct, then it must work. The best way to examine the logic is to put it into practice.

 

And capitalism's success? Everything's a success when its purpose's fulfilled. I wanted money, I robbed a bank, ah, what a success! But then I would be thrown in jail. Was slavery a success? Was feudalism a success? Wow of course! Are they all humane? No. It's not just about giving out opportunity to everyone, it's about giving aid and support.

 

u have been misinformed. not all governments are alike. here in teh US, the government takes the wealth from us in form of taxes. then gives it back us by paying for social services. who pays the police, firemen, libraries, and funds for public projects? the government usingo our tax money. limit freedom of speech....only china does that. u can be a communist here but they wont arrest u. theres even a communist party here but they're tiny cause no1 likes them. u will not be banished. also, would u dare call president hu jintao a moron and wear a "i hate hujintao shirt" in public? hope u have fun running from police. People do that HERE. democrats despise bush and there are anti-bush t-shirts going around. so we do have free speech. the only time its limited is when its a threat to our country.

 

Simply, cultural difference. Here in China, when we say things, we mean it, especially regarding politics. And we tend to play it up. So when you say you hate the president, it is interpreted as "I want to kill the president and start a revolution" and you're considered a threat. So why would I say that to show that I have free speech? In USA, you play it down. You say "I want to level the White House", because you've just had a bad day. That's no freedom of speech. That's all about defining "threat". Other than that, I've to say that tho we're not totally free, we enjoy more freedom than you think, and that you're sadly misinformed.

[BWare 0]

This entire thread have ignored one crucial fact, that is, that you have no right or power to make others agree with you, or accept the facts you presented, if you made no investigations into the matter yourself, or never carefully examined the core of the problem.

"No investigations into the matter yourself?" Are you implying that I haven't myself looked into and considered this? That's more or less an insult. And yes, in a debate, you SHOULD expect the other side to accept the facts you present. Facts are non-negotiable, and if the other side won't accept them, the debate is pointless. They'll end up believing whatever they want, regardless of reality.

 

Well this is pretty ironic, because capitalism in my country is pretty much understood in the SAME way. It goes "the so-called free social system with a bloody nature, which tends to promote false freedom of speech and publication, reduce productivity, and steal wealth from the working class in a silent, peaceful manner, therefore widening the poverty gap".

This is insulting and false. What the hell is so "bloody" about, say, American capitalism, or ANY civilized capitalist nation?? What you said is completely true of any communist country around. You are a fool to attribute the same charicatristics to North Korea, Cuba, China, and America. If you see them as similar in how they manage their money and people, then you have a hopelessly flawed view of the world. Don't think that, as a Chinese person, YOU haven'te been force-fed this false propaganda.

 

Let us not decide which one is "propaganda" just yet, for we all receive information from others that isn't 100% the truth. A debate without a decent understanding of its subject is stupid enough.

You, as I pointed out earlier, clearly don't understand how these systems work outside of what your country has been teaching you, apparently. See my last point about that.

(Info from a communist, fascist government like China is PROBABLY the propaganda in this case.)

 

What I'm going to say is, that communism is something that has never been realized. There have never been a true-communism on this planet.

...and there never will be. To think so is to completely and utterly misunderstand human nature. It has failed the thousands of times it's been tried on a small scale- never a single success. What makes you think it will EVER work on a national or even global scale? "True" communism is a feel-good pipe dream, and dangerous when these fools actually get serious about it (see the tens of millions dead in this century alone).

 

The "communism"s you were talking about are the false ones, the remains of oppression and exploitation in the name of communism. Perhaps some of you should know more about "socialism", that's what you cannot explain with a pie.

You can explain any economic system with a pie. Seeing wealth as a completely limited resource is a false and one-dimensional way to look at the complexities of reality. Also, I know PLENTY about socialism (or "communism lite"), because I know our Democratic party. It scares the hell out of me

 

Not "I have no freedom of speech" either.

You don't. In my country you can't be touched for saying anything anti-government, at all. In yours you can be locked up and executed. Pretty clear distinction... (and I'd call THAT a "bloody nature")

 

2. All governments, all governing classes, are alike. They take wealth from the rest when they can, and limit the freedom of their people to remain in power.

False, cynical, and wrong. Agan I invite you to look at the STARK differences between China and the US (putting aside the hateful propaganda)

 

If I say I'm a communist in the USA, I will be immediately banished.

Again, false. Man, you are striking out! You won't be received very warmly, no (because we don't like folks who support that evil system), but the government can't touch you. Hell, there's an official communist party in the US! Did you know that? How many opposition parties are allowed to exist in China?

 

Also, the freedoms, the chances, the opportunities you spoke of, can more or less be taken away, and sometimes you can't even notice.

They NEVER will be. Apparently that's something you don't understand either. We are bound to a CONSTITUTION (You folks should look into it. It kicks ass). It contains freedoms- absolute freedoms- that can NEVER be taken away as long as America exists. The only danger now exists in our judiciary... but again, that's another point for another time.

[visceroid 0]

"No investigations into the matter yourself?" Are you implying that I haven't myself looked into and considered this?

 

Indeed, I'm saying that you haven't enough info, or have been misinformed, to discuss communism, or at least communism in China. And if you think this is an insult then I'm sorry.

 

This is insulting and false. What the hell is so "bloody" about, say, American capitalism, or ANY civilized capitalist nation?? What you said is completely true of any communist country around. You are a fool to attribute the same charicatristics to North Korea, Cuba, China, and America. If you see them as similar in how they manage their money and people, then you have a hopelessly flawed view of the world. Don't think that, as a Chinese person, YOU haven'te been force-fed this false propaganda.

 

You clearly did not understand. These are not my words and I meant that they are info FOR REFERENCE and PROBABLY propagandas. Up till now I've never expressed anything anti-capitalism myself, I'm not a pro-communist either, I was just pointing out that this will be a frutile debate. Don't think that you have a flawless view of the world and won't be fooled by propaganda. 8) What makes you believe that this is propaganda and hold such a biased view is a form of propaganda in itself. And you will eventually come to know that most of the human history was written in blood, and full of bitter struggles.

 

You, as I pointed out earlier, clearly don't understand how these systems work outside of what your country has been teaching you, apparently. See my last point about that.

(Info from a communist, fascist government like China is PROBABLY the propaganda in this case.)

 

As I've said it, no one knows what truth is. Isn't your knowledge of the world taught by your country? What makes you think that China is a "fascist" :shock: nation, even in present tense? And this is more or less an insult. Are you implying: 1. I'm a fascist or 2. I'm a pro-fascist or 3. I'm a victim of fascism?

 

...and there never will be. To think so is to completely and utterly misunderstand human nature. It has failed the thousands of times it's been tried on a small scale- never a single success. What makes you think it will EVER work on a national or even global scale? "True" communism is a feel-good pipe dream, and dangerous when these fools actually get serious about it (see the tens of millions dead in this century alone).

 

Whether or not it will work, I don't know. But first of all, do you dare say that you understand human nature, completely and exactly? Do you know what communism really is, other than the unrealistic utopia and the tyranny? Have you read all the books by Karl Marks? If not then think twice before saying "never".

 

You can explain any economic system with a pie. Seeing wealth as a completely limited resource is a false and one-dimensional way to look at the complexities of reality.

 

Well then communism can be discribed in this way: the pie gets bigger and bigger and finally when we've all taken what we need, there's plenty to spare. And why would I see wealth as a limited resource :?:

 

You don't. In my country you can't be touched for saying anything anti-government, at all. In yours you can be locked up and executed. Pretty clear distinction... (and I'd call THAT a "bloody nature")

 

Can't be touched, but can be watched. And in our country, when you're not satisfied, you can visit the government and make suggestions or requests. No need to say anything anti-government, it's as simple as that.

 

Again, false. Man, you are striking out! You won't be received very warmly, no (because we don't like folks who support that evil system), but the government can't touch you. Hell, there's an official communist party in the US! Did you know that? How many opposition parties are allowed to exist in China?

 

OK, I was wrong about this one. But one thing: we do not measure freedom by number of opposition parties, as you do in the USA.

 

They NEVER will be. Apparently that's something you don't understand either. We are bound to a CONSTITUTION (You folks should look into it. It kicks ass). It contains freedoms- absolute freedoms- that can NEVER be taken away as long as America exists. The only danger now exists in our judiciary... but again, that's another point for another time.

 

Believe it or not, we have a CONSTITUTION too! And you've said it, there is always danger in judiciary. Agreed on this one.

[BWare 0]

Indeed' date=' I'm saying that you haven't enough info, or have been misinformed, to discuss communism, or at least communism in China. And if you think this is an insult then I'm sorry.[/quote']It is an insult. I have not been "misinformed". I have a mountain of historical evidence and an educated, discerning perspective. This isn't bragging- I'm just pointing out that I know what I'm talking about.

 

Don't think that you have a flawless view of the world and won't be fooled by propaganda. 8) What makes you believe that this is propaganda and hold such a biased view is a form of propaganda in itself. And you will eventually come to know that most of the human history was written in blood' date=' and full of bitter struggles.[/quote']I will "come to know" this? Stop talking down to me. I have studied, in depth, every era of human history, and I've had excellent teachers. I know this full well- hell, I think even graduates of our public schools have some idea! My point is that MODERN CAPITALISM IS IN NO WAY BLOODY IN NATURE. You're losing that point, so you retreat to haughty generalities.

 

As I've said it' date=' no one knows what truth is. Isn't your knowledge of the world taught by your country?[/quote']Nope. I've actually been in private schools for most of my life until college. But even in public schools, in OUR country, the teachers have power over the state. They can say whatever the hell they want! Don't think that we're being taught "by America" over here. YOU'RE being indoctrinated by your motherland- not us. In our public schools, we're being indoctrinated by leftists who hate the state!

 

What makes you think that China is a "fascist" :shock: nation' date=' even in present tense? And this is more or less an insult. Are you implying: 1. I'm a fascist or 2. I'm a pro-fascist or 3. I'm a victim of fascism?[/quote']Number 3. China is a ruthless, evil communist nation, and yes, it has fascist tendencies. In a country where "enemies of the state" are rounded up and slaughtered, I feel pretty comfortable calling them evil and, yes, fascist.

 

Whether or not it will work' date=' I don't know. But first of all, do you dare say that you understand human nature, completely and exactly?[/quote']Read my posts. I never said that. What I DID say was that I have a good understanding of good and evil, and that because of these BASIC aspects of human nature, "true" communism (as you fools keep calling it) is nothing but a feel-good pipe dream.

 

Do you know what communism really is' date=' other than the unrealistic utopia and the tyranny? Have you read all the books by Karl Marks? If not then think twice before saying "never".[/quote']I would wager that I know a hell of a lot more than you do on the subject, actually. I HAVE read and studied in depth his Manifesto, and many of his other writings. I've also studied a number of the many failed "utopias" that were built on his ideas- all complete and utter failures. I can say with pretty damn good certainty that communism, in its "pure" form, CAN NEVER WORK.

 

Well then communism can be discribed in this way: the pie gets bigger and bigger and finally when we've all taken what we need' date=' there's plenty to spare. And why would I see wealth as a limited resource :?: [/quote']Ah, the typical communist lie about the state grabbing up wealth until there's "plenty to spare". Sheesh.. you people are really blind. Tell me one time in history where this actually occured, and a benevolent communist leadership gave their citizens any more than the BARE MINIMUM for their survival (sometimes less!).

...and no, wealth is not a "limited resource." It's far too abstract a concept to call it absolutely limited- that's just silly. Wealth can be created, and capitalism is a wealth creating machine.

 

Can't be touched' date=' but can be watched.[/quote']Ooooohhhhh.... man that's scary! I tell ya, I wish I were in China where I'd be tortured and executed for my opposition instead of here, where our evil government "watches" us! Oooooohhhhhh....

 

And in our country' date=' when you're not satisfied, you can visit the government and make suggestions or requests. No need to say anything anti-government, it's as simple as that.[/quote']No one CAN say anything anti-government! You don't have the option! Your evil government would make you disappear. And what if there IS a reason to criticize or question your government? I can think of dozens here. I KNOW there's reason over their. Don't even try to pass this off as normal or healthy.

 

OK' date=' I was wrong about this one. But one thing: we do not measure freedom by number of opposition parties, as you do in the USA.[/quote']Neither do we! Stop being so foolish. This isn't a case of "measuring freedom." This is simply pointing out differences between a country WITH freedom and a country with NO freedom. Simple as that. Allowances for opposition are just examples.

 

Believe it or not' date=' we have a CONSTITUTION too! And you've said it, there is always danger in judiciary. Agreed on this one.[/quote']It would be pretty silly to compare the Chinese "constitution" to ours.... seriously. A constitution that allows room for the execution of political opponents is hardly a constitution at all. America pretty much pioneered the concepts of personal responsibility and freedom. It was a "great experiement," and was a roaring success by all accounts. China is the exact opposite (though it is slowly yielding to the ideas of the west)...

[GeneralZ 0]

i heard that chinese communists are good at using circular logic

[F15pilotX 4]

:haha: As are liberals in the US

 

we're being indoctrinated by leftists who hate the state!

I'm glad I'm in a private school...we have way to many wackjobs as it is :roll:

[TheBlackOut 7]

internet sharing?? i know for a fact that most chinese gamers do not own full retail version of games. they buy cheap hacked chinese versions of the game for 5 yuan. the prices for retail commerical games is like 200 yuan each...not many can get them. i oppose internet sharing stuff. pay for music and movies, dont download them online. its illegal and wrong

 

I love "sharing".