Religious beliefs

[BWare 0]

It is really nice to see a topic started about religion. I think that this has the potential to be a good discussion, and there can be some mutual learning. As some of you have no doubt gathered, I am a conservative Southern Baptist Christian. I believe in God and his son, Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose 3 days later, and in so doing took on the full burden of the sins of man. I believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God. I believe that the only way to heaven is through belief in the attoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ- faith alone, not works. That about sums me up.

 

Now, instead of addressing everything everyone has said, I would like to throw out a few questions for discussion. For those of you who believe that there is no one correct religion, I ask if you believe in absolutes at all. Since all religions are in fact mutually exclusive, I don't see how you can honestly believe that they can equally be true. The hard reality is that there is in fact one correct answer.

 

Lets see: we believe in the God, the eternal father, and in his son, jesus christ, and in the holy ghost. So, we would be Christian. Praying is much like any other Christian church, you dont have to do anything. Although there are a lot of rules and such, most do not follow them. Like, no smoking, drinking, use of profanity, eating excessive meats, etc. But I think thats kind of odd, and dont follow it strictly.

I think you have some facts confused about your own religion there Tree... Mormons do not believe that Jesus is God's son, but that he is simply his first creation, and is no different from you or me, except that he was created first. According to Mormon doctrine, Satan was the second creation, and basically equal with Jesus. The whole good vs evil thing in Mormonism is kind of like a brotherly rivalry. We are all spirits created by god in a succession following the two of them. If Mormons are good, the men can acheive "godhood," and can in the afterlife can inherit their own planet to rule, much like god does with earth. According to the Mormons, men can become gods. The men take with them their wives (that's how women get to heaven- spiritually through their husbands), and populate the new planet. This is where the belief in poligamy comes from, which has only recently been denounced out of convenience and a desire to fit in to the mainstream without looking like the cult they are . There are three divisions of heaven for the Mormons... the celestial, telestial, and terrestrial (forgive me if I have those confused). Mormon practices involve baptising for the dead, spiritually marrying women to get them into heaven (this happened with my mom, who is a Christian and did not ask for this), and other strange things that happen secretly behind closed doors. This is all done under the guise of Christianity, and clever marketing has much of the public completely snowed, but the Mormons are anything but Christian. Mormon literature is composed of the MORMON Bible (cleverly altered and mistranslated :roll:), the Book of Mormon (written by one man, and not backed in any way, shape, or form by anyone else or any other evidence), and the Pearl of Great Price. These books have no corroboration of any kind, as opposed to the true Bible which is as true today as it has ever been, and is one of the most factually-backed ancient documents ever.

...whew! All that to say, Tree, I think that you need to do some more research into your faith and realise what you are dealing with here. As with most of the Mormons I talk to, you are ignorant of what your doctrines actually teach. I don't fault you for this, believe me, but you really should search both your head and your heart and see if you truly believe that this is the answer. Do some research, read the Bible (the real one... seriously, the Mormon version is severely flawed), and pray about it.

 

 

Okay, now if anyone has any questions of any kind about what I believe, please ask. I love being challenged, and I love talking about this kind of thing.... I actually looked seriously into seminary before deciding on pre-med :wink:

I also love hearing the points of view of other beliefs and religions, so if something you believe contradicts something I believe, please don't hesitate to challenge me! If I'm wrong, I will concede. This is how we learn! :wink:

[Luk3us 63]

Damn Bware... That was just nasty... But then it isn't hard to fault something that isn't real.... ;)

[J-Fire_Man 0]

Hmmm interesting. Just asking, tell me atheists, do you believe in reincarnation?

[Azrael 0]

Depends to me. Though I belive that you can die when frozen BUT you can come back to life after you're thawed & heated. That is the ONLY way of getting reincarnated (unless some supernatural being like God ressurects you).

[Doctor Destiny 41]

@ BWare:

Someone has been watching too much South Park. The ideas of Mormonism are the same as that of Christianity. Who cares about some damn book? :roll:

 

@ J-Fire_Man:

No. It's a load of ****.

[Guest MadBadger]

I dont pray or anything but i cant help think there maybe something/someone there a few years ago i was a certain atheist and didnt belive in anything but over the last 2 years i havent "found" religion but i understand it and do belive there could be something there.

 

p.s this line is rather comforting i think.

I will fear no evil -- for you are with me

Your rod and your staff, they comfort me

You prepare a table for me, in the presence of my enemies

You annoint my head with oil, my cup overflows

Surely goodness and love will follow me -- all the days of my life

And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

 

fist time i heard it full was in the song "your nobody (till somebody kills you)" by Notorious B.I.G

[Tree 0]

Mormons do not believe that Jesus is God's son, but that he is simply his first creation, and is no different from you or me, except that he was created first.

 

The man who translated the Book of Mormon also wrote 12 articles of faith of the Mormon church. I took "We believe in the God, the eternal father, and in his son, jesus christ, and in the holy ghost." directly from the 1st article of faith.

 

Mormon literature is composed of the MORMON Bible

Incorrect. It is a regular Bible, not translated differently or anything.

 

Maybe you should actually read, or get your facts directly from a mormon, instead of anti-mormon liturature.

[Cygnus X-1 12]

Can see this could go bad...lets keep our cool on the whole Mormon argument. (some of you have seen how these turn out)

 

@BWare-I point out that you said do the people belive in absolutes if they think that no one religion is right and that all are mutually exclusive.

 

I think I was saying that just about all religions have a piece of the truth, whether its more important than another faith is up to Bob to decide. I was saying that we, as human, cant ever fully understand a divine entity, and there fore, no human could ever "create" the perfect religion. Thats why I strongly belive in a more personal relationship with Bob. Create your own idea of him in your mind's eye, your own mental image of who he/she/it would be like. Create for your self an imagainary friend, if you will, one that keeps changing and growing (more mature, hopefully) as you further expirience life.

 

Question: Are Mormons similar to Amish people?

[BWare 0]

@ BWare:

Someone has been watching too much South Park. The ideas of Mormonism are the same as that of Christianity. Who cares about some damn book? :roll:

 

@ J-Fire_Man:

No. It's a load of s***.

Hey Fenring, thanks for the brilliant burst of insight :roll:. New rule: only people with something to say get to talk. :roll:

 

@ Tree:

I don't pull those facts from anti-Mormon literature, but from Mormonism itself. What I said is completely true, and yes, the MORMON Bible has several bits of mis-translation. It is not the same as the Christian translations that come DIRECTLY from the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts.

 

@ Cygnus:

Interesting... I actually half agree with you here. I agree that God is impossible to be comprehended by any human, and a man-made religion is absolutely not the answer. Creation shows us that he exists, but the only way that we can come to know him is through special revelation- his direct appearance to us. "Bob" wants to get to know you :lol:. Now this is where it gets tricky... as a Christian, I believe that he did this with his word, the Bible, the prophets, and finally his son, Jesus Christ. I believe in what the Bible says, but let me seperate myself from much of the stigma that exists around Christians/Catholics/etc... I do NOT believe in religion. I believe that it all comes down to a personal relationship between us and Jesus Christ. That's it! The rest is just window dressing. Church is useful and really even necessary for us to grow spiritually in our relationship with Jesus, but when it comes to rules... Jesus came to destroy the old covenant that God had with the Jews and establish the new church, which was to finally free men of their sin and actually eliminate the arbitrary rules.

And no, Mormon's are not similar to the Amish. The Amish, while nutty, are actually Biblically based. The Mormons are NOT.

 

@ MadBadger:

Yeah, that is an awesome passage. Haha, it's really ironic that you came to know it through Notorious B.I.G.! :lol:

 

 

NB: Everything I believe is backed up by science and reason. I am no religious fanatic, but a logical, thinking person, and I believe that I have found the answer. I do NOT believe in blind leap faith.

[Luk3us 63]

Science and reason... hmm.....

 

Could you possibly expand on that please....

[BWare 0]

Well, that's a pretty broad topic there dude. What do you mean specifically?

[Waraddict 0]

Science and reason... hmm.....

 

Could you possibly expand on that please....

 

Let me clarify my point from earlier on, the only place Science comes into the existence of God is that he created it, you cannot use God's own creation to prove that he doesn't exist, depending on whether you have faith or not however Science is proof that he does exist.

 

Let me shift the perspective a bit, you create a pretty skilled piece of art, and then feck off, someone comes along, discovers your work, never knew you in person and is asked to prove whether you exist or not with your work, lets be honest, its quite rediculous to assume this piece of art just happened, its clear it has a creator, you could argue this if you like but one things for sure, nothing in this piece of art is valid proof that the creator doesn't exist.

 

When it boils down to it though, either you believe in God or not, and if we have to go into the realm of proof, God wins, the universe is a pretty complex place, how could it have no creator? It may not be strong proof at all to some but there definetly is no real 'proof' for the non-existence of God.

[dapperdan 0]

Just because the universe is a pretty complex place doesnt mean that 'god' had to create it. You, yourself said that no human being could comprehend 'god' and the same could be said about 'the big bang theory'. in my eyes the big bang and god are in the same boat, to me they are just theories on the creation if life, and personally i choose to believe the big bang theory.

As for Mormanism, u can't just say that it's a man made religion (btw, i do know the story of how it came to be). That's like me saying that christainism is man made, hebrewism is man made etc etc. There's no proof that a 'god' didnt talk to the founder of mormanism (Smith i think).

Basically, i have no reason to believe in god just because a book was written about him and Jesus, and i think it's also the easiest answer to any question. eg, 'Why's the grass green?' 'Cause God made it that way', it just doesnt work with me.

[Tree 0]

translated[/i] the Book of Mormon]We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

 

the MORMON Bible has several bits of mis-translation. It is not the same as the Christian translations that come DIRECTLY from the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts.

 

Different pieces of language can be translated different ways. The "Mormon" Bible is the same as any other Bible. Find me a difference from your Bible, and mine.

[Mina Synd 0]

i find it simpler to believe in science. cold hard facts in front of you, which you know 100% to be true. if you believe in whatever god/gods religion wise, what happens if you die and reach the gates of heaven or whatever (for simplicity, call it bob's house ) i mean we get to bob's house. then what? there could be our specific god, as we expect... or there could be another god. or gods. or reincarnation, or absolutely nothing, or a collective force. we honestly don't know til we get there. Now if you put all your faith into one religion or belief, how is the owner of bob's house gonna feel about it if you're wrong?

Thus i keep a nice healthy lifestyle. sure i may not worship any of them, but they can't really send me to bob's nemesis's house can they? i mean it's like completing all your work and the exams in school then having the teacher say "no p**s off you didn't give me an apple every day. you're not getting your grade!"

like i said before in previous things, i don't believe in anything specific, because if i did and i turned out to be wrong, it would really be a kick in the gut y'know?

I didn't mean for there to be a christian - mormon fight started over my previous question, i was just curious as to the lifestyle you are keeping up. Now surely only a Mormon him/herself could answer that no?

 

and as for the reincarnation thing, i don't believe in it... but i hope it's true. as much fun as internal paradise/heaven/bliss/whatever is, sooner or later it's gonna get boring have fun all the time. much more fun to be part of the collective force or reincarnated... that way you get to watch the world's history happen, or you get to be alive through the next level of technology

[Waraddict 0]

Just because the universe is a pretty complex place doesnt mean that 'god' had to create it.

 

I did say that its up to your faith whether you believe the universe proves his existence, my main point however is that you cannot use anything in the universe (science) to prove his non-existence. Therefore the non-existence of God is actually slightly less logical then the existence of God.

 

You, yourself said that no human being could comprehend 'god'

 

I actually I didn't , it was another guy, but I would agree with it, if more people who have faith realised that God is beyond what we comprehend, that is the universe, they would realise nothing can disprove his existence and would have stronger faith, it's often that those who have the idea of a bearded man in the clouds looking after each one of us that lose faith as their view is vulnerable to science.

[Mina Synd 0]

i don't think it's the idea of a guy in the sky that kills it for people, more along the lines of "if there is a god, how could he let these things happen to me" it's all fair enough saying we have our destiny, but at what point does it become needed for a small girl to be tortured and abused for months just so she can do something in the future? okie so it might be way bigger then i could ever imagine and whatnot but if belief is so important to get people to heaven, surely god would realise "if i don't keep people happy, they are gonna stop believing" i mean what could he possibly achieve from making people have shabby lives? and what could he/she/it gain from having lots of different religions and letting people fight out over it? unless god is warped o.O

i mean it's like putting red ants and black ants in a plastic dish together and not expecting something to happen...

 

I'm not pulling a "hey lets all stop believing in god!" thing, just trying to show why so many people don't even bother with faith. That and the fact that some of us weren't raised in a location where we could get religious training, so we focus on things around us instead (plain logic: if, as a young child, you want some food and you live in say, a ghetto, are you going to steal from a 24/7 or are you going to put your heart, mind and soul into a great being you've never heard of til now because someone said if you believe, you're going to get food?)

There are also the born negative types among us who just deny anything unless it's staring them in the face...

 

Hope that makes sense to everyone, believers or otherwise

[Cygnus X-1 12]

Those are some very good points.

 

I believe that heaven (or all spinoffs thereof) might or might not be whatever we dont whish someone else wished it not to be. Despite whatever it is, or isnt, or wasnt ever meant ot not going to be, there is a Bob, and he has a house. And we as people, we meant to find our way there. In the Christian and Jewish bibles, and if I'm not mistaken, the Islamic holy book, all have very very similar parts to them, and all of them say in some way, shape, or form, that Bob created mankind with a freewill. That Bob put mankind here to use his intelect and freewill to chose his own path. Those whose path goes up Bob's front lawn get to his house. Those whose path doesnt, well, they dont get there. Whether they get reincarnated or go to the local Pub for a drink is up to Bob.

 

The pain and suffering on this planet is caused by the choice of human beings to be greedy and selfish. Think about it. Just about every situation where innocents get hurt can be traced back to greedyness, selffishness, or extremely long lunch breaks when the editor in question manages to go on fourteen world cruises be fore finally dozing off and choking to death on a passing fly that was suddenly struck dead by Bob knows what. Anyway, it is plainly put, our fault.

 

BWare makes a very good point also. Religion is a bunch of people in a so-called shrine chanting and reading and following proper procedures and taking naps, all for the worship of Bob, who currently is or was not sitting in a chair on his front porch either drinking lemonade or not drinking lemonade. Bob doesnt need to be worshiped. he isnt some sort of dictator or editor who goes off on extremely long lunch breaks that manage 14 world cruises before...you've heard the story. Bob lets us in the door, or on the lawn (depending on how you look at it) when we have understood him/her/it/the circumference of tea by getting to know ourselves through whatever it is that we like to do to get ourselves to think, and more importantly, just let our imaginations drift around a bit and have some light conversation with the occasional cloud overhead.

 

Seriously, let yourself go. Relax. Take a seat. Take a lunch break. Take two if you have the mind for it. Set aside some time for your self every week (at least) where you are just there and do...nothing. Allow your imagination to randomly wnader and drift around a bit. You'll be suprised at what might just wander in. Do as I suggested earlier, make Bob into an imaginary friend. But do all crazy on me now. Just put a little word in once and a while with your self. Comment on the weather, the smile the customer gave you, the little kid at the lemonade stand, the painting on the while. Enjoy life. Cause lots of people dont, or cant.

[Mina Synd 0]

exactly. Man that was a very Bill Bryson way of looking at things (minus a couple of typo's/spelling/grammer mistakes)

y'know i think we just explained the universe. i mean you got bob, the creator, his house - where we all go... and we got bob's dog and bob's dog's kennel, and his cat... methinks we could go on and give a list of bob's complete ark pet collection but i'm too lazy to type all that.

hmm... question though: if bob is the creator, where did bob come from?

[Acerz492 1]

I'm an athiest, and I prefer to stay in that line of thinking. I'd put my money on science, as science is how our world has shaped and changed over the last few centuires. However, I know that both science and religion are fallable in their own seperate ways..I guess I'll have to wait untill I die and see what happens. But to me, science is just that much more interesting. Science will eventually allow us to settle all over the solar system (here's hoping ).

 

@Cygnus: That was brilliant. Although, I've been doing that since before I was 10 years old. Drifting away even for ten minutes is wonderful. It helps you calm down and just think. I'm so used to doing that that I sometimes loose track of what's going on though, so I guess I gotta crack down on myself. :lol:

 

 

@Mina: Where did Bob come from? Hell if I know. Maybe BWare can answer this question, as he does like a challenge, right BWare? :wink: :lol:

[Hans5849 0]

I believe in the higher being Ryan, he says that you must give all your monies to me and do my bidding. /mocking Religion

[Mina Synd 0]

o.o maybe Ryan is Bob's creator... *shrugs* eh this is getting a lil off the point. is there anyone here who has a religious belief which is not well known? (we all know the basics to such global religions like Christians, Jews, etc etc...) i'd be interested to know about religions in general... please, no more arguements about differing gods and stuff. The Athiests will only swamp you all (simply put the athiests pretty much outnumber most beliefs here since they are mainly negative people who like war... That and the athiest members who have posted on this board outnumber the religion types ^^; )

[Luk3us 63]

When was the last time you heard of an Athiest crusade? I think you have them mixed up...

[Acerz492 1]

I've never heard of them...though I have heard of stupidity crusades. Which reminds me, I promised BWare one when I go to the states soon. :wink: :lol: :lol:

 

I've heard of some crazy religion...hrm...it's called Fundamentalist Christian. They like to annoy people in the street and spew forth things from megaphones. I like to throw rocks at them. They make -real- christians, you know, the ones who don't try to shove their beliefs down other people's throats, look bad.

 

Mina, the athiests outnumber the religious members? I thought it's the other way around! I'm not negative (but I am pessimestic, does that make me negative?), and although I enjoy war, I wouldn't want to experience -real- war. I knew if I were to experience real war, I would be soo fsked up in the head if I survived it. :?

[Luk3us 63]

Isn't joing the Airforce kind of a contradiction?